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Bass in Flamenco
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000)
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Please, no bass in flamenco. It's been done, of course, by none other than Paco de Lucia himself. But in my opinion a bass interferes with, rather than complements, the flamenco guitarists and diminishes the overall quality of the performance.
Bill
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Date Mar. 26 2016 20:41:28
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000)
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Several years ago when Paco played on the UC Berkeley campus Keni Parker did a hilarious review of the show on the old Temple.edu Foro
The stage background was plain scrim glowing dark blue with colored gel lighting. It looked like a Mac screen, so he reviewed the show as if he were looking at it through his desk top with a blue screen.
The first thing he did was say ideally if this were really my desk top I would grab the bass player with the mouse and put him in the recycle bin and empty the trash.
______was a very interesting review
Bass in flamenco works for be if it is an acoustic bass played by a real seasoned jazz bassist and they play a straight ahead full sound pizzicato off the end of the fingerboard. The electric sound that is like Jaco can be annoying because it does not change much, it always sounds nasal and farty. I have heard some really good bassists play with Jason McGuire, he hires top professional bassists from LA or San Francisco and right now I think he has a regular guy in his trio. If you want to hear some good bass playing in a jazz-flameco context check out the new release from Mc Guire.
His new group is probably the best adaptation of jazz and flamenco working I have heard. The playing ranges from very expansive traditional flamenco forms to virtually straight ahead jazz, with flamenco inflections. They also pull you into some free jazz that is fairly outside playing but bring you right back in and even those who don't think jazz a flamenco can work together would stand a chance of changing their minds after hearing those guys.
One of the reasons this group works is because the bassist does not go the Jaco route. He works it differently throughout the album, in places he sounds like Reggie Workman or Mingus-y and in other places he does a little Jaco here and there for color, but his Jaco is better than Benevent's Jaco and he keeps it out of the fart sonority. He keeps his 'Jaco strap' on tight and defers to John Paul Jones instead.
The drummer uses a regular jazz kit, and Jason just does his thang. This band is on my computer screen none of them go into the recycle bin, they are a fixture on the desktop.
Hot Acoustic Bass player in Flamenco, Album- Terceto Kali Jason's trio is also called Terceto Kali. He was playing under the name Jason McGuire trio but they changed the name. I have an advance copy of the CD as a pre-release and it has a a different name. I'll try to write more about it a as review, but I highly recommend it.
P.S. The Bow, use the damn bow more in flamenco. Screw the violin and flute in flamenco, bow the bass.
One of the problems I have with bass in Flamenco-jazz mix ups is that coming from a deep listening to jazz background I always feel like the Spanish musians don't swing or if they do not hard enough. With respect t Ricardo's exception and thoughts on Nunez. They begin Jazz history at Weather Report and they don't get rooted in hard swinging bass players from post Bop era. Not enough Jimmy Garrison, Reggie Workman, Mingus Paul Chambers, Red Callender, whosoever played with Dolphy, Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, in the hard bop scene is a good model for strong bass playing. Those guys are not quiet players, they are out front and muscular, but not out of place.Stanley Clarke, Paul McCartney, Niels Orsted, George Clinton, Ron Carter, Ruphus Reid, ect all are bassists that could work better than the Jaco Fusion jazz timbre.
Heck, Sting would be better than the farty faux Jaco sound.
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Date Mar. 26 2016 23:38:44
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to jamh2000)
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Sorry you feel that way Todd.
I hear Paco's changing the way way the bass works in his music over the years, I enjoy his music and recognize him as a tower, but that does not mean I have to love his sidemen. I love Miles Davis too, but sometimes I'm not thrilled with the way a sideman takes a sound into the band. But Miles and Paco both wanted them to be there. Benevent is a fine bass player, but for me in flamenco I can't honesty say I drink it up like I can't get enough. His sound and way of putting it in the music is narrower in scope and as a listener it becomes "samey" after a while.
Flute and violin bother me too, generally in flamenco. Why not oboe? Oboe has a more more flamenco feeling, but oboe is just not cool, flamencos need to be cool. Yusef Lateef playing oboe on a few cuts of Pacos albums would have been super interesting, but it never went that way. Tony Levin's bass sound in the 1970s and early 80's was also in the air and similar in the rumble to Benevent, but somehow much more varied, I don't get ear fatigue for his bass playing.
Paco hired his friend and they made a group sound, but I don't have to like the total sound to like Paco, just like a few of Miles' records where I don't like the choice of guitarist. In the end I bought both the Miles albums and the Paco albums. My vote counts.
Now Geddy Lee, there is a farter extrordinaire. Tony Levin farts a bit too. They all fart on occasion, the bass is just at that end of the human body.
Simon did you fart as a bassist too? Be honest.
To be fair I will write Peter Gabriel a letter today and ask him to edit all of Tony Levin's fart noise off his albums next time they are re-released.
I hope that makes you at least smile.
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Date Mar. 28 2016 0:19:37
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Agreed. Also, I had completely forgotten about the Habichuela/Holland collaboration that is a good example of how the double bass can be used while still keeping a strong flamenco feel. Recently there was a concert that brought together Nino Josele, Chano Dominguez and Avishai Cohen on double bass. Probably more jazz-oriented but I'd be curious to know what the end result sounded like since those are 3 tremendous artists.
I wonder though if part of it is just everyone's personal comfort level with the limits between flamenco and world/jazz music. I'm personnally usually skeptical whenever a bass is introduced because it usually implies a more jazz-oriented work, which isn't really my cup of tea (not to say there aren't, of course, absolutely brilliant pieces that fit in that category). The bass does bring you pretty far from the traditional sound of flamenco, though that may just be my own impression. To get back to your point Anders, I guess my question would be this: Is there such a thing as kinship between certain instruments and certain styles of music, e.g. is it harder to sound flamenco with an accordeon or a tuba, a picolo or a theremin? Or is it only just the way the instrument is played that will determine whether or not it "fits" into a give musical style? Personally I think there may be a little bit of both in the mix.
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Date Mar. 28 2016 10:19:45
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Bass in Flamenco (in reply to El Kiko)
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There are restaurants in Italy where the request to sprinkle some Parmiggiano Cheese on the Bolognese Sauce (more accurately, "Ragout") is met with outrage, criticized as heresy and ultimately denied.
Vicente Amigo had added Bass, Flute, Violin, Harmonica and even a full Strings and Winds Orchestra. I continue to believe that his music was conceived for "solo" guitar, and anything else added to it sounds like a commercial interrupting the narrative of a good movie.
Etevan summed it quite well back in 2011
"Well there you go, like so many things it's just a matter of taste.
I remember hearing Almoraima for the first time. I was being blown away by this amazing piece, man, and then suddenly I'm saying "Hey, what's that weird farting noise? A bass?! WTF?!"
Really spoils a great piece.
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quote:
Wasn't Paco the first to include Bass in flamenco?
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Not to mention...bongos!
Ah well...Paco can do what he likes."
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=157061&appid=&p=&mpage=1
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gj Michelob
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Date Mar. 28 2016 13:51:24
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