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I have dipped in and out of foroflamenco with interest and have finally gotten round to creating an account.
I am a Scottish jazz/folk guitarist and have recently begun my project in flamenco guitar. I've recently purchased a lovely second hand 'Graciliano Perez Blanca' from the London Guitar Studio and will be taking 2 years out in Spain to take tuition and intensively study in flamenco. I have been preparing for the last month with 6-7 hours practice a day, using various online resources. Progress has been good but i'm dying to get out there now. Flamenco has moved me in such a way that i've decided to dedicate my study solely to it! It all began after witnessing a PDL concert in France some years back.
I have applied to various funding sources to help with funding and am in the process of finishing off a kickstarter to aid in tuition out there.
I did, however, have a request of any of you who take interest.
For those of you who don't know kickstarter, it's a crowd funding website in which you offer rewards in exchange for investment - rewards usually take form in the product that you're creating or exclusive offers, etc. However I am trying to create a reward section that would encourage potential backers to invest in my project for reasons other than simply wanting to support my study. It would be slightly arrogant and unrealistic to assume otherwise!
So I thought I would ask you all, as flamenco enthusiasts, what you would want to hear or receive in return for $10,20,30,50,100 investment?
I am going to be in and around Andalusia working with maestros in guitar, singers and dancers etc, and thought that perhaps documenting this through recordings, discussion, transcriptions of music, photography etc - effectively creating a portrayal of modern day flamenco as it is played in its natural home. My idea so far is that backers would have the opportunity to subscribe, in varying degrees depending on investment, to one off, quarterly and bi-monthly packages of my accounts of flamenco in Andalusia.
Would you like the opportunity of receiving, say, a bi-monthly packet of discussions on flamenco with native musicians (with transcription), recordings of sessions, lessons undertaken, photography, hand written music transcriptions of falsettas i'm learning, etc. There could be an option to have personalised questions answered by various individuals in flamenco... i don't know. Is that a good idea?
Any feedback or suggestions would be of great help. Perhaps I should just bulk buy local Spanish chorizo and include that as an incentive!
I do realise that for a first post this is rather demanding!
I look forward to discussing with you all and taking part. I'll post some videos of my progress in a few days if you would like.
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to mark_heavenor)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark_heavenor So I thought I would ask you all, as flamenco enthusiasts, what you would want to hear or receive in return for $10,20,30,50,100 investment?
Welcome to the foro. Yours is an original concept - I wish you luck! I'd like to hear genuine cante coming out of small juergas or from street corners.
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Morante)
Of course!
Cante in particular has enticed me to immerse myself in flamenco. I trained classically as a Baritone and sing traditional music as well so it's a totally different world to the one I have occupied.
It will be a pleasure to learn flamenco accompaniment.
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to rombsix)
Hey bud, i'm trying to form more of an idea as to what people such as yourself might be interested in other than an account of my own progression - "It would be slightly arrogant and unrealistic to assume otherwise! " - so regardless of my own development, if you had the opportunity to receive something from the Andalusian flamenco scene, say recordings of local musicians etc... would that for instance interest you? any suggestions would be fantastic!
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to mark_heavenor)
If you want to be more ambitious...
your thread has reminded me of a discussion here that is not so old ...
A little while ago there was a discussion something along the lines of - so many new artists emerge from strong flamenco roots in Andalucia, release one or two great CDs which exhaust their repetoires and to continue making a living diverge into senseless flamenco pop . Ricardo came up with a solution / alternative - put together a small record label that specialised in releasing CDs of live performances. Since every live performance is a little different young artists can have more CDs to their name that are true to their roots.
Unfortunately I can't remember what the thread was called - but I think it was at some point over the last couple of months. Perhaps it was the "what is flamenco today?" thread.
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Dudnote)
That certainly is a brilliant idea. Something to perhaps consider after my initial project as it would take some planning!
I have already incorporated your idea of documenting the flamenco coming out of the street corners and 'juegas'. I do need to think about the ethical sides to redistributing others' music however. I suppose with their express permission and backing behind the idea of being part of a series of recordings that would promote flamenco...
I've finally launched the project! It's doing quite well so far. I certainly took on your advice for recording some of the street flamenco and incorporating that into the rewards. What do you think? Would you have any ideas as to where to promote it?
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to mark_heavenor)
quote:
Would you have any ideas as to where to promote it?
I appreciate your desire to learn flamenco, Mark. I suggest you not over-hype your production, though. For instance, you refer to flamenco as an "Ancient Art" in your blurb below the video. For a genre that really coalesced only in the nineteenth century into what we now call "flamenco," it is hardly an "ancient art," although some of its antecedents--Sepharidic, Moorish, and Gypsy--might be considered ancient.
Also, I thought your videos and writings were going as "rewards" to those who have contributed to your endeavor. Now it appears that you want to exploit them commercially, given your query above about where to promote them. I suggest you engage an agent if you want to promote your work commercially.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to mark_heavenor)
G'day Mark.
Good luck with your fund raising mate. Just a thought though... I currently live in Spain doing exactly this with my girlfriend.
I just wrote a post about our expenses here, Cost of studying flamenco in Seville. We spend about 1200Euro/month, but as a single'ly you might be able to get yourself down to 600Euro/month if you share.
It's pretty tough to get a job so, I hope you've got some cash saved up mate!!
Good luck though, if you need some tips on where to study in Seville, just give us a shout ;)
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to koenie17)
quote:
You want to learn flamenco in Spain, and you want us to pay for it?!?
But according to his promotional material requesting your funding, you will become "Part of the story"!!! See excerpt below.
"Take Part in an Unfolding Story:
"PARTICIPATION Come and experience 2 days of Andalusia or Madrid with me, we'll make music, meet up with musicians, I will show you the best of authentic flamenco in the area - the Dance, Cante and Guitar."
And he, a novice whose promotional blurb refers to flamenco as an "Ancient Art," is directing this at members of the Foro, many of whom have spent the better part of a lifetime playing flamenco and researching its history. An ancient art indeed! Did it take an archaeologist recovering artifacts to conclude that it was only in the early to mid-nineteenth century that flamenco coalesced into the art form we know today?
At least you get a coffee mug when you contribute to your local PBS station.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Dudnote)
quote:
I want to expand my cante collection. If you pay for that and throw in a bottle of Jerez I'll sing you martinetes until the bottle's gone dry.
OK, Dudnote, but if you really want to impress our budding young aficionado attempting to cadge funding from Foro members to increase his knowledge of flamenco (which already exceeds that of many Foro members) you will sing martinetes in the original Latin. Thanks to our friend's offering of a sample of delights that await us if we contribute, we now have it straight from him that flamenco is an "Ancient Art," not the musical form established in the first half of the nineteenth century that we thought it was. Latin, of course, being the language in which cante was originally sung when flamenco was performed in Hispania under Roman rule, it is indeed an ancient art.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo He already has requests to teach flamenco workshops in scottish universities in 2018...so he better get crackin at learning the flamenco.
He might need an invited guest or two. Wink wink nudge nudge
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to mark_heavenor)
Read through the kickstarter page... I don't know what to think of it.
Seems very "delusional/pretentious", even the risks & challenges part at the end seem too "light".
Even if the guy already had some flamenco background (which apparently isn't the case), good will alone isn't usually enough as a business plan (which sounds like "go to spain and figure something out").
Since there are some supporters already, maybe that's exactly what they want... a surprise (where "nothing" might also be the end result).
If this goes forward, I hope it turns out well and everyone ends up happy, despite all the notorious issues with the task.
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to mark_heavenor)
Here's an idea Mark...
Do you know Norman's site canteytoque.es? It's a treasure trove of information - for example take the page there called "Classification and study of siguiriyas and soleá" - there's an awesome amount of information there with numerous sound files of masters of old - but it's also quite daunting for an amateur guitarist to work through (I haven't got so far with it yet ) - partly because if you only have 1 hour a day for flamenco what do you do, read a web site or play guitar?
What would be truly great would be to make films (or podcasts) around material of this quality. Obviously, if you used info from that site for a film you should be up front and open with the guy that put all that information together, perhaps even work with him - if he agreed you'd have found yourself a great mentor.
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Dudnote)
What puzzles me is the question "How the hell will he know what is good/useful/interesting/reliable info to share"?
I get the feeling that people are funding this in hope to get a laugh or something. Maybe they are expecting some "Spanish Night Romance" kind of music.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
i think what he hasnt realized in his haste is that some of us already live there ...... or may be in and out once or twice a year ....or just talk to freinds there on facebook etc ....so the offer of ''discussions on flamenco with native musicians '' is something many of us already have ...
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to mark_heavenor)
Hi Mark,
No harm in asking, so good luck with your venture. Some things jump to mind in terms of advice:
It takes a lot of time to learn enough conversational Andalu' (the idioma of the region) before you will get very far with the locals. Basic Spanish is a must before you arrive, otherwise you will be hanging out with other English speakers and missing the opportunities.
It can be challenging getting locals to cooperate with such a venture. Most will expect financial reward for participation in a video or audio production. Some will be reluctant to plan on turning up at any given time and place, so you will mostly have to go to them on an ad-hoc basis, often at night with really challenging lighting and sound conditions. Make sure you get signed releases/agreements. This may also include clearing any copyrighted material and royalties. This might well include your teacher, as they will not be inclined to give away their business for free.
You will not stumble across flamenco easily. It does not lurk on every street corner, so make your contacts beforehand (this forum is a good place to start).
I lived in Granada Province for three years and made a documentary which was well received and covered its costs. It was relatively easy to control the subject matter, but do not underestimate the amount of post-production to produce anything worthwhile. Estimate 15-20 minutes to edit 1 minute of video and audio. Many, many hours more to translate and add any subtitles.
YouTube is full of local, spontaneous flamenco grabs, so adding production value will be essential. Making it into a story.
In terms of Kickstarter (I am in tech. and very aware of its workings), I would be more inclined to a single, tangible product e.g a book of high quality photos, a memoir or documentary.
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Dudnote)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dudnote
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo He already has requests to teach flamenco workshops in scottish universities in 2018...so he better get crackin at learning the flamenco.
He might need an invited guest or two. Wink wink nudge nudge
So I have started my "help me travel to scottland to appear as special guest teacher at some scottish universities in 2018" Kickstarter campain. My mom has already contributed $30 bucks, please help out. I will provide some cel phone youtube clips of the classes and some local bagpipers....very good chance a clear HD shot of (finally) the loch ness monster to boot. Gold level donators (higher than $500 bucks) will receive a silk screened T-shirt with a photo of either A. the best Lochness monster pic I get or B. Me with my guitar (or Paco de Lucia if you prefer, XL size only).
All proceeds will go towards food and Beer on my trip.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Ricardo)
thats sounds good Ricardo ... i was thinking of starting a one for me with kickstarter .. it would be travelling out of Andalucia and getting to know some bars in Washington DC.
i will spend most of the money on beer and burgers , but the bottle labels i can send to you donators, my wife donated 20 euro just to get rid of me ..., i can provide phone pics of me getting thrown out of some well known bars in the area .. maybe some of transcripts of my court appearances etc ..
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to mark_heavenor)
If the goal is less than 5k, why not just get a job for six months and save the money? The idea that practicing for a few months instead of earning the money is going to make some huge difference is well, maybe not that accurate. Some of us have been studying for decades and have spent many thousands in our pursuit of flamenco. Welcome to the party.
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
thats sounds good Ricardo ... i was thinking of starting a one for me with kickstarter .. it would be travelling out of Andalucia and getting to know some bars in Washington DC.
OK, El Kiko, here's my proposition. Ricardo and I live in the Washington, DC area, and with you coming to visit, the three of us could start a joint kickstarter campaign. Silver level donors (up to $250) would get photographs of the three of us getting kicked out of some well-known watering holes. Gold level donors ($500 and above), because of their elite status, would get videos filmed in real time as we are ejected from said watering holes, plus they would receive a written summary of the night's events leading up to our being thrown out. As a bonus, for an additional $100, the gold level donors will receive a photograph, suitable for framing, of the three of us brandishing our guitars in full defiance of authority.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: hello! from newest member. I hav... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
If the goal is less than 5k, why not just get a job for six months and save the money? The idea that practicing for a few months instead of earning the money is going to make some huge difference is well, maybe not that accurate. Some of us have been studying for decades and have spent many thousands in our pursuit of flamenco. Welcome to the party.
Your suggestion makes very good sense, Mark2, and I'm sure that is what many on the Foro have done. But it appears that in the case at hand, the goal is to have someone else pay the freight. The thinking seems to be, "Why should I work and save if I can talk others into paying for me?"
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Printable Version
. Ricardo came up with a solution / alternative - put together a small record label that specialised in releasing CDs of live performances. Since every live performance is a little different young artists can have more CDs to their name that are true to their roots. 
) - partly because if you only have 1 hour a day for flamenco what do you do, read a web site or play guitar? 
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