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Bizare injury
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Mark2
Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to payaso)
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I've seen this viewpoint written many times, and can see the wisdom in it, but the reality is much different IMO. While I, and certainly many others, can appreciate guitarists without fast picado, most of the top players have developed it. Some use it to better effect than others. When you listen to or attend a live performance you can hear the reaction to a great picado. Unmusical? Not when done at the right moment. It may indeed not be essential to "real" flamenco, whatever that might mean to various folks, but a huge percentage of listeners are very much interested in well executed single note runs. I agree it is in fact a potential source of injury and despair, but that doesn't change the fact that the public, and many aficionados, are very impressed with it. It is the most difficult technique to develop, which might in part explain it's appeal. quote:
ORIGINAL: payaso That sounds good advice, but there may be another way of looking at this. Sometimes anxiety – apprehension, tension or panic – can be a warning of real imminent danger that needs to be taken seriously and not always dismissed as inappropriate. The desire to achieve a super-fast picado seems to be a major stumbling block for many would-be flamenco guitarists, and a potential source of injury and despair. Yet this most unmusical of techniques, now so dominant in flamenco guitar today, is not an essential part of the essence of flamenco and of ‘flamencura’ and may even detract from it. Maybe one should heed the warning and turn instead to trying to express the emotional power of flamenco, not just the pyrotechnics impressive to some other guitarists but not so much to other listeners.
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Date Sep. 11 2015 15:21:58
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to payaso)
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quote:
That sounds good advice, but there may be another way of looking at this. Sometimes anxiety – apprehension, tension or panic – can be a warning of real imminent danger that needs to be taken seriously and not always dismissed as inappropriate. The desire to achieve a super-fast picado seems to be a major stumbling block for many would-be flamenco guitarists, and a potential source of injury and despair. Yet this most unmusical of techniques, now so dominant in flamenco guitar today, is not an essential part of the essence of flamenco and of ‘flamencura’ and may even detract from it. Maybe one should heed the warning and turn instead to trying to express the emotional power of flamenco, not just the pyrotechnics impressive to some other guitarists but not so much to other listeners. I couldn't decide whether to tease you about all those awful "modern" players who "overused" picado like Ramon Montoya, Manolo de Huelva, Melchor de Marchena, Niño Ricardo, Manuel Morao, Sabicas, Mario Escudero..... well, they all had killer picado IMO. But maybe better just to point out that, ironically, my first guitar injury (something like 20-25 yrs ago now) was when I jammed up my carpel tunnel practising pulgar, and it was most probably (I can't actually remember) on some Paco Peña falseta that he got from Niño Ricardo....
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Date Sep. 11 2015 21:56:59
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to Dudnote)
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quote:
Mark, you imagining approach sounds promising. I think it was an unfortunate choice of mine to use that word, as it may give the wrong impression. I did use "mental practise" or similar construction several times. As I understand the physiology, for movement to occur at least one muscle has to contract, and the tendon attached to it has to cross a joint for that joint to move. It's pretty obvious that contracting muscles in the area of your ribs aren't necessary to flex and extend the fingers, as the relevant muscles for those movements are in the forearm, the tendons running down to cross the joints in the fingers. Where it gets really interesting though is how those muscle contractions occur. There has to be a desire to make the movement in question, there has to be a mental conception of how that movement is to occur, and the "orders" have to be formulated in the brain and sent via the nerves to the muscle to tell it to contract. If you can improve the mental processes that create the movement in the first place, and remove extraneous instructions from the program (like contracting unnecessary muscles in the neck, or torso) through mental practise then you will be stopping off at source the unnecessary muscle tension. Sure, stretches and lying on the floor with books under your head, or towels or tennis balls between your shoulder blades can be nice, and can help relieve aches and pains and can help to relax out of tension once you have created it, and for some people that is enough. But long term I believe it is better if you can prevent the problem in the first place, rather than to go on keep creating the problems and then seeking relief from them. When I had a lot of problems with tendonitis I also had crippling pains in my neck and back, which led me to have to take all this fairly seriously. I also found that stretching, books, towels, tennis balls (I tried them all!) had little effect because I was SOOOOO tense that the second I stopped whichever stretch/relaxation technique I was practising I was instantly tense again. Sometimes they didn't even stop me being tense at all, and not only that but some of the stretches actually made things worse because I was tensing one set of muscles up in order to pull on (ie."stretch") the set that seemed tense in the first place, and I ended up with double the tension I started with!
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Date Sep. 14 2015 16:52:43
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estebanana
Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
Where it gets really interesting though is how those muscle contractions occur. There has to be a desire to make the movement in question, there has to be a mental conception of how that movement is to occur, and the "orders" have to be formulated in the brain and sent via the nerves to the muscle to tell it to contract. If you can improve the mental processes that create the movement in the first place, and remove extraneous instructions from the program (like contracting unnecessary muscles in the neck, or torso) through mental practise then you will be stopping off at source the unnecessary muscle tension. Yes this is true, dropping as much non intrinsic movement as possible is a good way to work. When we play, we do many many things we don't need to do. I struggle with this as well. But the reason I keep saying lay on the floor and do nothing but breathe is because you can learn what zero, or as close to zero, movement feels like while doing nothing before you reconstruct the playing and leaving out non essential movements. If you lay on the floor and breathe you will have a very difficult time doing nothing and dropping the non essential stresses and movements. Laying down you have a good chance to observe the body and the mind when you do nothing, but breathe. Think of how simple that sounds, yet when you try laying on the floor the mind has a hard time to settle into it because it is a control freak, and it's running itself ten times faster that it needs to go. Then think about playing the guitar, it's way more complex than lay down just breathing and observing how the mind wants to take control of all the little twitches and non essential movements when you are being still. See the mind will learn to relax faster by training it to settle down while doing a less complex task. Guitar playing is really complex and we do about 5 or 6 things we don't need to do in addition to the things we must do to make the guitar work. So a way to teach the mind to settle down is to be still and breathe and watch the mind go through it's routine. The breathing, opening up of the chest and ribs and the mind settling happen at the same time. I think it is easier to learn relaxation by reducing the movements to the least you can do and watch your mind. Your mind will go nuts right before your eyes, so to speak, and when you begin to feel the connection between the mind calming and the body opening you can try to get that feeling then you are doing more complex tasks. The thing you have to ask the mind do, is to just let you breathe and open up. The mind hates this and will fight back because it's in the skull on top of the body and it thinks it knows more than you do or the body. When you talk about tendons and muscle connections and kinesthetics of playing the guitar this is all correct. But try that without a guitar with nothing, but breathing. One of the big problems with stressful playing is breathing unevenly, holding your breath, forgetting to breathe, denying your self breath because it might mess up an arm movement. The chances are very good you don't even know you are not breathing into your playing. Making natural breathing part of the playing process is a good beginning towards less stress. And breathing well makes the movements in playing more efficient. Breathe, play slow, don't over think.
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Date Sep. 15 2015 3:18:57
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
the mind has a hard time to settle into it because it is a control freak, and it's running itself ten times faster that it needs to go. I know. That's why I signed up for a Vipassana silent meditation retreat. 8 hours a day meditation, over 10 days. No talking. No books or pens, no reading or writing. No radio or tv or cd or mp3. No singing or musical instruments. Just me and my crazy monkey mind.... And then a year later I went back and did it all again. But you know what? As soon as I picked up the guitar again all of the old habits came back because I was using the same protocols, the same set of "instructions" as before. I had already practised yoga too before this, so plenty of corpse pose etc. But you know what? My internal/subconscious concept of standing involved such a lot of tension in my neck and torso that as soon as I stood up from the floor I just cranked it all back up without, of course, realising I was doing it. As I said, for some people relaxation or stretching exercises might be enough to initiate changing the way they play, but it sure wasn't for me. It is often said that it is better to learn technique right in the first place because bad habits are hard to change. I think what I am talking about here is why they are so hard to change. One of the reasons I went straight back to playing in my bad old way after yoga or meditation or stretching or whatever was that I had PRACTISED playing in that bad old way for so long! quote:
The thing you have to ask the mind do, is to just let you breathe and open up. The mind hates this and will fight back because it's in the skull on top of the body and it thinks it knows more than you do or the body. When you talk about tendons and muscle connections and kinesthetics of playing the guitar this is all correct. But try that without a guitar with nothing, but breathing. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "ask the mind....to just let you breathe" but I know from experience that letting breathing occur naturally, autonomically, without interfering, is one of the hardest things to master. I can't say that I'm where I want to be with that, but I'm certainly a long way from where I was when I was in the middle of the problems I have been referring to in this thread. And "try that without a guitar" is exactly what I was suggesting above. I'm also not sure if we are meaning the same things by "mind" "body" and "thinking" etc. - I think the further we look into mind and body the harder it becomes to separate them. Neither exists without the other. Some physiologists believe that the spinal column is part of the brain, and some include the entire system of nerves throughout the body. I'm not saying that mind and brain are synonymous either, but if the brain extends throughout the body it becomes harder to distinguish between "mental" and "physical". Some refer to "psycho-physical unity". What I refer to as "mental processes" that create all movement are not the same as the inner dialogue type "thoughts" that monitor, judge, edit, critic etc.
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Date Sep. 15 2015 12:43:32
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estebanana
Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
I know. That's why I signed up for a Vipassana silent meditation retreat. 8 hours a day meditation, over 10 days. No talking. No books or pens, no reading or writing. No radio or tv or cd or mp3. No singing or musical instruments. Just me and my crazy monkey mind.... And then a year later I went back and did it all again. But you know what? As soon as I picked up the guitar again all of the old habits came back because I was using the same protocols, the same set of "instructions" as before. I had already practised yoga too before this, so plenty of corpse pose etc. But you know what? My internal/subconscious concept of standing involved such a lot of tension in my neck and torso that as soon as I stood up from the floor I just cranked it all back up without, of course, realising I was doing it. As I said, for some people relaxation or stretching exercises might be enough to initiate changing the way they play, but it sure wasn't for me. It is often said that it is better to learn technique right in the first place because bad habits are hard to change. I think what I am talking about here is why they are so hard to change. One of the reasons I went straight back to playing in my bad old way after yoga or meditation or stretching or whatever was that I had PRACTISED playing in that bad old way for so long! First I respect and acknowledge your work at a Buddhist and meditation practice. I also respect your sense of how to move though it in whichever way you see best for yourself. I'm going to say a few critical things about Vipassanna based on my observation of practitioners I've spent time with and listened to about how they practice. I'm not directing this at you personally. I began meditation a long time ago and I drifted through various kinds of practice the first three years until I found one that made sense to me that was not too esoteric or culty. The schools of practice I checked out were a few Indian kinds of practice, Tibetan, Ningma sect stuff in particular, a few others. After some time I ran into these very well trained Soto Zen monks in Berkeley, and I stuck with them because they were the most normal, least pushy and never asked for or pressed for money. I did not ever work with any of the chanting cults kinds of Japanese Buddhism that some of my friends were into, now I see on TV in Japan the lady who invented it. She's not even a real monk. I have to admit I'm not really a very good buddhist either, I'm pretty sloppy and out of trim. But there were some years when I was involved everyday and around very well trained monks. I learned a lot of common sense things about Buddhism from them. We both have experience at meditation, but many others here don't, so when you or I say general things like "breathe, breathe", for them it might be a new idea. So I think any kind of talk about this is good, but I've been in an our of Meditation practice for 30 years and in that time I've seen patterns, sometimes meditation, breath watching, yoga works and some time sit does not. For the same person, these kids of practices may not work for few years and then the situation changes and they become beneficial and helpful. For you obviously you are not into it. On the subject of Vipassana practice, I've got my doubts about it, as you have yours about the yoga stuff. The stories I hear from Vipasanna goers are often times like your story. I've heard that over and over through the years. The thing about a practice is that once a year for an intense ten days is fine, but that kind of intensity needs to be supported by a lot of build up to it. I have talked to full time transmitted monks in other sects of Buddhism who have really careful things to say about Vipassanna. One of the observations is that they say is look we do this every day beginning at 5 am and then a few more times during the day, and we work very consistently everyday this practice. They will go to retreats in the monastery when they close the monastery to lay persons and do a practice that lasts several days and it's not meant to cure them of anything, but to deepen the practice they have everyday. I've never gone to a long ten day retreat where you can speak, for me I see no reason to do that. And the monks I have been around have also said you know for a lay person ten days is too much once a year. It's like grabbing your guitar and practicing for a hundred hours in one week and then expecting the rest of the year to be workable with no more practice the rest of the year. The monks I have been around in the Soto school say if you can manage 10- 15 minutes a day of sitting practice you'll be better off than going whole hog once a year and wrecking your knees and your back. The other reason I won't do vipassnna is because they encourage sitting through body pain. I heard Vipass people come back from retreats and say, "Oh I was getting leg cramps and numbness, etc, but I just sat through it. " I think that is really stupid, for one when you get older you simply can sustain a kind of practice where you have to tough it through body difficulties, there are enough complications without needing to have pain to overcome. The idea by contrast in Soto training is that the practice is not aimed at dealing with pain while you sit, it is maintained by sitting everyday with good spine shape and a bright mind. At a Soto retreat maybe an older person would sit in chair and not try to sit through physical pain that younger vipass people seem think they have to endure. Anyway, someone just pulled up to my shop with a bee hive in the back of a truck and they are trying to give it to me. So I have to go figure out what to do with a bee hive now. But again, I'm not being critical of you personally or any ones practice, just relating some things I have observed about different kinds of practice. Probably the best outcome of this conversation is that is reminds me to go sit myself down a bit.
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Date Sep. 16 2015 2:28:18
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Bizare injury (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
First I respect and acknowledge your work at a Buddhist and meditation practice. I also respect your sense of how to move though it in whichever way you see best for yourself. I'm going to say a few critical things about Vipassanna based on my observation of practitioners I've spent time with and listened to about how they practice. I'm not directing this at you personally. I began meditation a long time ago and I drifted through various kinds of practice the first three years until I found one that made sense to me that was not too esoteric or culty. The schools of practice I checked out were a few Indian kinds of practice, Tibetan, Ningma sect stuff in particular, a few others. After some time I ran into these very well trained Soto Zen monks in Berkeley, and I stuck with them because they were the most normal, least pushy and never asked for or pressed for money. I did not ever work with any of the chanting cults kinds of Japanese Buddhism that some of my friends were into, now I see on TV in Japan the lady who invented it. She's not even a real monk. I have to admit I'm not really a very good buddhist either, I'm pretty sloppy and out of trim. But there were some years when I was involved everyday and around very well trained monks. I learned a lot of common sense things about Buddhism from them. We both have experience at meditation, but many others here don't, so when you or I say general things like "breathe, breathe", for them it might be a new idea. So I think any kind of talk about this is good, but I've been in an our of Meditation practice for 30 years and in that time I've seen patterns, sometimes meditation, breath watching, yoga works and some time sit does not. For the same person, these kids of practices may not work for few years and then the situation changes and they become beneficial and helpful. For you obviously you are not into it. On the subject of Vipassana practice, I've got my doubts about it, as you have yours about the yoga stuff. The stories I hear from Vipasanna goers are often times like your story. I've heard that over and over through the years. The thing about a practice is that once a year for an intense ten days is fine, but that kind of intensity needs to be supported by a lot of build up to it. I have talked to full time transmitted monks in other sects of Buddhism who have really careful things to say about Vipassanna. One of the observations is that they say is look we do this every day beginning at 5 am and then a few more times during the day, and we work very consistently everyday this practice. They will go to retreats in the monastery when they close the monastery to lay persons and do a practice that lasts several days and it's not meant to cure them of anything, but to deepen the practice they have everyday. I've never gone to a long ten day retreat where you can speak, for me I see no reason to do that. And the monks I have been around have also said you know for a lay person ten days is too much once a year. It's like grabbing your guitar and practicing for a hundred hours in one week and then expecting the rest of the year to be workable with no more practice the rest of the year. The monks I have been around in the Soto school say if you can manage 10- 15 minutes a day of sitting practice you'll be better off than going whole hog once a year and wrecking your knees and your back. The other reason I won't do vipassnna is because they encourage sitting through body pain. I heard Vipass people come back from retreats and say, "Oh I was getting leg cramps and numbness, etc, but I just sat through it. " I think that is really stupid, for one when you get older you simply can sustain a kind of practice where you have to tough it through body difficulties, there are enough complications without needing to have pain to overcome. The idea by contrast in Soto training is that the practice is not aimed at dealing with pain while you sit, it is maintained by sitting everyday with good spine shape and a bright mind. At a Soto retreat maybe an older person would sit in chair and not try to sit through physical pain that younger vipass people seem think they have to endure. Anyway, someone just pulled up to my shop with a bee hive in the back of a truck and they are trying to give it to me. So I have to go figure out what to do with a bee hive now. But again, I'm not being critical of you personally or any ones practice, just relating some things I have observed about different kinds of practice. Probably the best outcome of this conversation is that is reminds me to go sit myself down a bit. I've been away a few days but wanted to reply to your post on a few points. I don't take any of this personally and have no problem with other approaches to Buddhism and meditation. I haven't practised for a long time, maybe 10 years, and I'm not a Buddhist. I'm also not advocating or promoting Vipassana in any way. I had taken various classes in meditation and yoga for some years before encountering Vipassana, and leading up to the first time I took the course I was practising maybe 20 minutes a day (I went occasionally to drop-in meditation sessions that sat for 20 minutes), so there was some build up to it. I also knew socially quite a few people who had taken the course, and it never seemed culty either before or after I tried the course. Vipassana is a meditation technique (according to tradition the meditation technique that the Buddha used to reach his enlightenment), and there are various groups and organisations that teach and practise it. I don't suppose they are all the same. I don't think it is "like grabbing your guitar and practicing for a hundred hours in one week" I think it is more like practising half an hour a day, and then once a year taking a week's workshop/course in Spain where you have classes and hang out and play a lot. The course I took in Vipassana a couple of times had 8 hours of meditation a day on the timetable, but only 3 of those were actually monitored. So for those 3 one hour sessions if you didn't turn up they came to look for you to check if you were ok, or if there was some kind of problem. The other 5 hours on the schedule were listed as "meditate in the hall or in your room", and if you practised in your room and lay down for a little rest and a snooze no one minded. Or you could take a walk round the open grass field behind the hall, and through the woods at the end of the field and stretch your legs. There were also wooden benches at the top of the field so you could sit and watch the birds and clouds etc. etc. Talking with the other people taking the course was prohibited, but you could approach the course "manager" for any material problem (eg. if you run out of toothpaste), and there was opportunity to see the course leader/teacher daily for any issues related to the meditation practise. I guess it seems like a fairly "hardcore" meditation course, but maybe it is not that extreme in the culture and tradition it comes from. It is a non-monastic lay tradition of householders who for whatever reason can't or don't want to commit to joining a monastery but still want to follow the teachings and practise of the Buddha (according to the interpretation of that particular tradition), so they set up a 10 day course as the minimum period needed to learn the technique, and recommend daily practise and taking a 10 day course annually to top up. I took the course again a year later, and in between sat for 40-60 minutes a day (actually I think they recommend an hour TWICE a day, but I just never had the time!). There's no way I would have the time or inclination to do that now, but that was then and I don't think it did me any harm! As for sitting through pain, yes you are encouraged not to get up and go for a walk at the first bit of discomfort, but no one beats you with sticks if you move! There are a lot of cushions provided, and there are chairs at the back of the hall. Some people practise sitting on the chairs. They also ask a lot of questions on the application form, I guess to screen out people who are not suitable, or who are going to have problems with the course.
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Date Sep. 21 2015 19:14:05
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