mark indigo -> RE: Bizare injury (Sep. 21 2015 19:14:05)
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First I respect and acknowledge your work at a Buddhist and meditation practice. I also respect your sense of how to move though it in whichever way you see best for yourself. I'm going to say a few critical things about Vipassanna based on my observation of practitioners I've spent time with and listened to about how they practice. I'm not directing this at you personally. I began meditation a long time ago and I drifted through various kinds of practice the first three years until I found one that made sense to me that was not too esoteric or culty. The schools of practice I checked out were a few Indian kinds of practice, Tibetan, Ningma sect stuff in particular, a few others. After some time I ran into these very well trained Soto Zen monks in Berkeley, and I stuck with them because they were the most normal, least pushy and never asked for or pressed for money. I did not ever work with any of the chanting cults kinds of Japanese Buddhism that some of my friends were into, now I see on TV in Japan the lady who invented it. She's not even a real monk. I have to admit I'm not really a very good buddhist either, I'm pretty sloppy and out of trim. But there were some years when I was involved everyday and around very well trained monks. I learned a lot of common sense things about Buddhism from them. We both have experience at meditation, but many others here don't, so when you or I say general things like "breathe, breathe", for them it might be a new idea. So I think any kind of talk about this is good, but I've been in an our of Meditation practice for 30 years and in that time I've seen patterns, sometimes meditation, breath watching, yoga works and some time sit does not. For the same person, these kids of practices may not work for few years and then the situation changes and they become beneficial and helpful. For you obviously you are not into it. On the subject of Vipassana practice, I've got my doubts about it, as you have yours about the yoga stuff. The stories I hear from Vipasanna goers are often times like your story. I've heard that over and over through the years. The thing about a practice is that once a year for an intense ten days is fine, but that kind of intensity needs to be supported by a lot of build up to it. I have talked to full time transmitted monks in other sects of Buddhism who have really careful things to say about Vipassanna. One of the observations is that they say is look we do this every day beginning at 5 am and then a few more times during the day, and we work very consistently everyday this practice. They will go to retreats in the monastery when they close the monastery to lay persons and do a practice that lasts several days and it's not meant to cure them of anything, but to deepen the practice they have everyday. I've never gone to a long ten day retreat where you can speak, for me I see no reason to do that. And the monks I have been around have also said you know for a lay person ten days is too much once a year. It's like grabbing your guitar and practicing for a hundred hours in one week and then expecting the rest of the year to be workable with no more practice the rest of the year. The monks I have been around in the Soto school say if you can manage 10- 15 minutes a day of sitting practice you'll be better off than going whole hog once a year and wrecking your knees and your back. The other reason I won't do vipassnna is because they encourage sitting through body pain. I heard Vipass people come back from retreats and say, "Oh I was getting leg cramps and numbness, etc, but I just sat through it. " I think that is really stupid, for one when you get older you simply can sustain a kind of practice where you have to tough it through body difficulties, there are enough complications without needing to have pain to overcome. The idea by contrast in Soto training is that the practice is not aimed at dealing with pain while you sit, it is maintained by sitting everyday with good spine shape and a bright mind. At a Soto retreat maybe an older person would sit in chair and not try to sit through physical pain that younger vipass people seem think they have to endure. Anyway, someone just pulled up to my shop with a bee hive in the back of a truck and they are trying to give it to me. So I have to go figure out what to do with a bee hive now. But again, I'm not being critical of you personally or any ones practice, just relating some things I have observed about different kinds of practice. Probably the best outcome of this conversation is that is reminds me to go sit myself down a bit. I've been away a few days but wanted to reply to your post on a few points. I don't take any of this personally and have no problem with other approaches to Buddhism and meditation. I haven't practised for a long time, maybe 10 years, and I'm not a Buddhist. I'm also not advocating or promoting Vipassana in any way. I had taken various classes in meditation and yoga for some years before encountering Vipassana, and leading up to the first time I took the course I was practising maybe 20 minutes a day (I went occasionally to drop-in meditation sessions that sat for 20 minutes), so there was some build up to it. I also knew socially quite a few people who had taken the course, and it never seemed culty either before or after I tried the course. Vipassana is a meditation technique (according to tradition the meditation technique that the Buddha used to reach his enlightenment), and there are various groups and organisations that teach and practise it. I don't suppose they are all the same. I don't think it is "like grabbing your guitar and practicing for a hundred hours in one week" I think it is more like practising half an hour a day, and then once a year taking a week's workshop/course in Spain where you have classes and hang out and play a lot. The course I took in Vipassana a couple of times had 8 hours of meditation a day on the timetable, but only 3 of those were actually monitored. So for those 3 one hour sessions if you didn't turn up they came to look for you to check if you were ok, or if there was some kind of problem. The other 5 hours on the schedule were listed as "meditate in the hall or in your room", and if you practised in your room and lay down for a little rest and a snooze no one minded. Or you could take a walk round the open grass field behind the hall, and through the woods at the end of the field and stretch your legs. There were also wooden benches at the top of the field so you could sit and watch the birds and clouds etc. etc. Talking with the other people taking the course was prohibited, but you could approach the course "manager" for any material problem (eg. if you run out of toothpaste), and there was opportunity to see the course leader/teacher daily for any issues related to the meditation practise. I guess it seems like a fairly "hardcore" meditation course, but maybe it is not that extreme in the culture and tradition it comes from. It is a non-monastic lay tradition of householders who for whatever reason can't or don't want to commit to joining a monastery but still want to follow the teachings and practise of the Buddha (according to the interpretation of that particular tradition), so they set up a 10 day course as the minimum period needed to learn the technique, and recommend daily practise and taking a 10 day course annually to top up. I took the course again a year later, and in between sat for 40-60 minutes a day (actually I think they recommend an hour TWICE a day, but I just never had the time!). There's no way I would have the time or inclination to do that now, but that was then and I don't think it did me any harm! As for sitting through pain, yes you are encouraged not to get up and go for a walk at the first bit of discomfort, but no one beats you with sticks if you move! There are a lot of cushions provided, and there are chairs at the back of the hall. Some people practise sitting on the chairs. They also ask a lot of questions on the application form, I guess to screen out people who are not suitable, or who are going to have problems with the course.
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