RE: Triplet rasgueado wall

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana)

If those figures Stephen posted are accurate, then he has plenty of improvement to make at faster speeds and a little practice should really help.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2015 16:18:50

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

It's easy to get an even P IM P triplet at a slow speed. When you push the tempo, it's not just about how fast you do the wrist motion because the centrifugal force on your fingers will be much higher. Add that to the fact that the faster you go, the less tolerance (time) you have to adapt the P and IM, your practically playing with a foreign hand when you crank up the tempo beyond what you're used to.

That's why you have to practice it in increments... and that's where the metronome comes handy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2015 16:48:14

estebanana

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

Add that to the fact that the faster you go, the less tolerance (time) you have to adapt the P and IM, your practically playing with a foreign hand when you crank up the tempo beyond what you're used to.

So true, when I go fast the hand becomes an alien and my Lizard King DNA KICKS IN AND I BECOME LARRY KING!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 0:24:33

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana)

There are several variations of the abanico (triplet) rasgueado.

--P up, A down, M down, P down.
--P up, A down, I down, P down.
--P up, M down, I down, P down.
--P up, A and M down simultaneously, P down.

I find the P up, A and M down simultaneously, P down to be best for me. I would be interested in What variation other Foro members find best for them?

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 1:07:53

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to BarkellWH)

Doing triplets with four strokes seems unnecessary difficulty added to estebanana's issue.

Billy Sheehan does 4/4 with 3 fingers but he uses a gainy bass sound... I can't imagine the triplet with four strokes working in flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 1:46:42

Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Nobody will improve anything if they believe 3 @205=6 @115

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 3:25:10

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Rhythm is really an abstract concept for many people. Even when the
numbers are explained to them, it's a difficult thing for many people to
understand. I teach alot, and i find it's the hardest thing to deal with.

I'm always trying to think of new ways to teach it. I wish i had something useful
to add here, but i think its tough unless you're one on one in person.
Even then its still tough.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 3:43:20

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to ToddK)

. Gonna have MORE kids then???

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 4:12:58

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Here I'll embarrass myself publicly if it settles my start level on this project to improve.

If you can stand to watch four minutes of me practicing you'll figure out my level. And if the teachers, Todd, Ricardo want to use it to make a point or add a critique that can benefit all of us, please go ahead.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 4:30:07

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Great thread!!

For me nothing sounds more flamenco than a nice strong and evenly sounding rajeo.
I think in this vid Tino explains it very well! For me it helped a lot.

https://youtu.be/pTuwuu7m_24

Metronome, pacience and eye for the details will get the job done.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 11:00:49

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

If you can stand to watch four minutes of me practicing you'll figure out my level.

I have no advice, Stephen, but out of interest, what strokes are you using? It looks to me like you are using the strokes:

P up, A and M down simultaneously, P down.

It is difficult for me to tell, though. Are you just using the A down? Or M down? and then the P down?

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 14:49:28

estebanana

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hi Bill,

P- up AM- down P- down P-AM-P

AM held together as a unit. I also use P-M-P the same way and leave out the A, but the MA combo is secure and gives a slightly heavier sound.

Starts P up, but depending on where you want to come out with the thumb up stroke you can start with AM down, but I don't use that as much.

I can also use P-M-P the same way, but AM together as a unit is a better sound for me.

I have the triplet, but not at the speed I want. I've been at this level of speed for some years and I want to push it up faster.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 15:16:50

Sr. Martins

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I have the triplet, but not at the speed I want. I've been at this level of speed for some years and I want to push it up faster.

Your technique looks a bit stiff and that might be the problem. Most of all, it's important to realize that there's a speed threshold where you go from moving P and AM into holding them. That's why trying to do the exact same thing faster will never work and you'll start sounding like Iron Maiden.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 15:31:24

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

Doing triplets with four strokes seems unnecessary difficulty added to estebanana's issue.... I can't imagine the triplet with four strokes working in flamenco.

You're correct, Sr. Martins. It was late at night and I was tired. Don't know why I listed the four strokes. Should have been:

--P-up, A-down, P-down
--P-up, M-down, P-down
--P-up, AM-down, P-down (my preferred triplet)

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 18:24:00

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

--P-up, AM-down, P-down (my preferred triplet)

For this effect, that's my favorite too because AM balances better with P's mass I think.

I also use a lot the IMI and IAI triplets, the good think is that you can interchange them without a change in tone. Since I never gets tired, being able to use either M or A will let you last longer if you're in a continuous roll.

I think I've seen Jeronimo Maya doing this but I don't know if it has a special name.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 18:45:18

Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Here I'll embarrass myself publicly if it settles my start level on this project to improve.

If you can stand to watch four minutes of me practicing you'll figure out my level. And if the teachers, Todd, Ricardo want to use it to make a point or add a critique that can benefit all of us, please go ahead.

Your problem is controlling beat with wrist. Same tempos try only thumb up strokes using wrist but straight eighth notes...

As far as tempo gauge you are at 132 BPM ... McGuire example of yours is in the 160bpm range... You are getting there

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 21:11:36

Miguel de Maria

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Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Stephen, did you try playing the 32nd notes as Ricardo had suggested? I just tried it (had to start at 40 bpm). I was able to ramp it up to 120 bpm, which is where I would usually be playing sextuplets. Plus it felt kind of good and groovy on the wrist.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 21:13:40

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I know the loose part too, but that is where I can't control it yet. I get that you must be loose to go fast, I understand that. But the trick is to stay loose and not lose articulation.

quote:

Your problem is controlling beat with wrist. Same tempos try only thumb up strokes using wrist but straight eighth notes...

I'll work on that and post progress.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2015 23:59:30

ToddK

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Ricardo is right, its really about doing straight 8th notes.

If you want the sound in the Mcguire/Ricardo examples, you dont want triplets, 3 notes sorta squeezed together with P up always the loudest stroke. Instead of 3's, do 4's so it starts on a different finger(s) each time. Pull back a bit on P up to even it out with M,A etc Work on getting rid of that delay after P up. You already have good speed on it. You just need evenness. It takes time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2015 6:41:44

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Ricardo is right, its really about doing straight 8th notes.

If you want the sound in the Mcguire/Ricardo examples, you dont want triplets, 3 notes sorta squeezed together with P up always the loudest stroke. Instead of 3's, do 4's so it starts on a different finger(s) each time. Pull back a bit on P up to even it out with M,A etc Work on getting rid of that delay after P up. You already have good speed on it. You just need evenness. It takes time.

I see, so it divides the beat into 8 notes, but uses the same right mechanism as a triplet? That how I'm understanding it. Is this correct?

You use: P up, AM down, P down P up which makes four 'strokes' and you place them as 8th notes? Then by accenting the up thumb you get the feel.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2015 11:40:38

Blondie#2

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
I see, so it divides the beat into 8 notes, but uses the same right mechanism as a triplet? That how I'm understanding it. Is this correct?

You use: P up, AM down, P down P up which makes four 'strokes' and you place them as 8th notes? Then by accenting the up thumb you get the feel.

No, don't accent the up thumb, then you are subdividing by three again. You don't want that feel, that's the whole point.

The point of this approach is accent whatever stroke falls at the start of the beat of four, eg (starting on upstroke)

P am p p AM p p am P p am p P am p p....

or in 8s that would be: P am p p am p p am P p am p p am p p AM........

By shifting the accent your brain gets to focus on different beats and it helps to even things out rhythmically. Ultimately of course you remove the accent to get that wall of sound with no accents.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2015 19:50:06

ToddK

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Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Blondie#2)

quote:

Ultimately of course you remove the accent to get that wall of sound with no accents.

Yes!

Exactly!

The lack of accents will make your current speed seem much faster. You'll see. :)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2015 20:54:50

Sr. Martins

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to ToddK)

When I was into speed in guitar (with a pick) and other instruments, the tricks "to make it sound fast" would be the last resource. IMO it's better to get a solid technique up until the speed where you break and slowly build up from there than practicing the ways to look/sound like you're playing lots of notes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2015 21:20:03

ToddK

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

When I was into speed in guitar (with a pick) and other instruments, the tricks "to make it sound fast" would be the last resource. IMO it's better to get a solid technique up until the speed where you break and slowly build up from there than practicing the ways to look/sound like you're playing lots of notes.

You're not getting what we're saying. Its not a "trick" to make it sound faster.

Even strums with even space in between each one, and lack of accents give
the illusion of more speed. But it is not a trick. It simply means working on
not accenting any one strum, and making them even. No tricks involved.
Just solid technique building.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2015 21:54:47

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

You're not getting what we're saying. Its not a "trick" to make it sound faster.

Even strums with even space in between each one, and lack of accents give
the illusion of more speed. But it is not a trick. It simply means working on
not accenting any one strum, and making them even. No tricks involved.
Just solid technique building.

Ok, sorry I get it now.

That's how I practice this too but I keep the "three to the beat" thing going but making sure that there's no strong hit from my right hand unless I want to.

On another note... Sometimes people say that it's about the wrist and it can be misleading.. In fact, the wrist shouldn't move at all. The rotation comes from the elbow alone.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2015 22:21:02

NenadK

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Joined: Jun. 6 2010

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Wow guys great thread. I've been working on rasgueados as well and having some of the same issues. The last bit about practicing with 8th notes and having the beat fall on a different finger every time is hugely helpful. I noticed that my speed was increasing but I was having trouble getting that wall of sound precisely because the beat would land on the same finger.

One question though. Could someone explain what a marote is? I should probably know this already...

Thanks again guys!

N

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2015 2:57:41

Blondie#2

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RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to NenadK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NenadK
One question though. Could someone explain what a marote is? I should probably know this already...

Exactly what is being described in this thread.

P-M-P, or P-AM-P = triplet rasgueado = Marote (actually I play it P-IM-P)

There are other rasgueados played in triplets that give a different sound/aire that are not Marote.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2015 8:56:33

orsonw

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Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen now that others have explained more clearly what I meant about focusing on rhythm and doing 4 note patterns and starting/ending on different fingers maybe have another look at also using konnokol? (I'm only going on about it to share my experience that I have found it very helpful.)

Por Solea between the 7and 8 beat (or 9 to 10) play 8 notes + 1 note on the beat 8

I like to start AM down on beat 7 so that the P up lands on beat 8 (though ideally all strokes should be equal maybe beat 8 can be slightly accented, though I have to be careful not to rush when I accent)

ta ka di mi ta ka di mi ta
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1
am p p am p p am p p

(for some reason these won't line up when posted but hopefully you get the idea)

When you have that, lengthen to do 8 notes per beat phrase lasting from beat 1 to 3, (or 4 to 6)
I like to begin with P down so that the P up lands on beat 3.

At slower tempos solea por baile (sometimes they like it very slow) I like to play 12 notes per beat for the wall of sound effect.

Using konnokol allows the brain to learn what it is asking for, then the hand has a chance to follow clearer instructions and sometimes the mechanics then take care of themselves. Movement is produced by many different neural pathways working in relation to one another. konnokol allows access to different pathways than just looking at the hand and plugging away mechanically. Using konnokol also means you can practice the pattern without the guitar or moving your hand. One only needs to hear the rhythmic mastery of Indian musicians to know that it works, flamencos also use their version of it, dancers and guitarists often communicate by singing phrases to each other.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2015 9:23:32

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Orson,

There is an Eric Dolphy recording that has an American singer doing konnakol while he plays. Thanks for reminding me. An old fav recording.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2015 11:08:04

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Triplet rasgueado wall (in reply to Blondie#2)

quote:

The point of this approach is accent whatever stroke falls at the start of the beat of four, eg (starting on upstroke)

P am p p AM p p am P p am p P am p p....

This is hard. The tendency and ingrained pattern in my brain is in three's I have to reprogram the pattern and this will be difficult.

Either I missed this when it was taught to me or it was taught in a way that allowed me to slip into the 3's pattern ( the bad student blames the teacher! JAJAJA

) . So Now I have to restructure my thinking and muscle patterns and this will be difficult. I really stopped playing in 2010 due to a back injury, and now I have a modicum of healing, still chronically hurts, so I am gradually trying to play again. It's so depressing to have to stop playing that I really neglected thinking about technical work since then. Now I'm in a position as a guitar maker where I will have to demonstrate my own guitars past kindergarten level solea falsetas, which is part of why I'm working on this. The other part is that I realized the guitar is actually pretty fascinating to play, even if one pretty much sucks at it.
:D]

quote:

One question though. Could someone explain what a marote is? I should probably know this already...

Marote' if someone has not PMed you yet, a guitarist who is very important. Look up Juan Maya 'Marote' on Youtube and add the names Bernarda and Fernanda.

He became really famous in the early 70's as a guitarist who played with a lot of punch. About the time he was peaking Paco de Lucia came on the scene. He worked with many great singers and he was a star player for several years.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2015 8:55:21