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Which of the above matter or appeal to you in a flamenco guitar? Assume the guitar costs in the $3000 + range. Please check all that apply.
I'm just interested in gathering some data on what matters to people on a guitar. Some of them may seem pretty trivial, whereas the really important things, like ease of playability, I left off due to their obvious nature.
If you could take some time to make selections I would much appreciate it.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
Hmmm, don't know if this poll is really going to help you too much. We all know that a guitarist wants all of those things, even if they are contradictory.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
since everything can be checked off it will be difficult to ascertain the important characteristics. maybe doing a rank order would be better--this would allow for a rank order statistical analysis.
Posts: 1947
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
Good intonation at different positions as you play chords higher on the neck. Plays well-it feels good, things that are hard to play for you are easier to play on this guitar. Stays in tune when you play hard. Sounds amazing. You hit a chord and get a thrill cause it sounds so good. It's loud. Good action without excessive buzz. It looks great cause well, it cost a lot. It even smells good when you open the case. It inspires you to play more. You will be very sorry if you ever lose or sell it. Because it's better than most all of the guitars you've ever owned or played, it gives you confidence. It's one less thing to worry about when performing-you know IT won't let you down.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
I am surprised to see how close the average of fellow members have voted to my personal preference, with the expection of one single point which is neither listed nor seems to be considered all too much.
It is:
quote:
Good intonation at different positions as you play chords higher on the neck.
Precision tuning as well as good intonation seem not much consciously experienced / appreciated in the guitar community.
Another point that is rarely mentioned is consistent volume across the neck. Specially the upper register will often become softer the farther up the neck you go. Unaltered volume with high notes seems were responsiveness really shows.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
Andy,
I think you are building some pretty nice sounding instruments right now, so the only thing I could say about them is make sure they play right. And this is pretty much determined by the action that most guitarists prefer.
There's no way to get things totally straight with all players but there is a way to hit a happy medium that the majority likes. This is one reason that I chose a certain style and design. They appeal to most players on the average, even though I may lose some sales.
So I just strive to build the best I can and leave the rest to players discretion, however they may choose a builder for their instruments. None of us are going to totally capture the market with an add-on or too much question and answer, so I try to build to a high level and leave the rest to those who are interested in reading about different designs, etc.
You have very appealing prices, and if you can build a guitar that goes beyond that, in its quality, then you have a niche, for sure.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
A friend told me that Spanish guitars don't tend to have much oomph in the high notes, that you need one of the lattice-type things for that.
He is right for a significant number of Spanish guitars that are built for lower market sales but the quality issues in higher priced guitars are noticeable toward better sound production. I tried out a Manuel Reyes classical the other day and it was quite capable in its higher register.
I think things are changing for the better with lattice braced guitars but I still prefer the sound of a good fan braced model.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
Thanks Tom. Your latest sounds great I think!
Action and overall playability are key and vary quite a bit from player to player. There are a few people out there who want no bass string buzz at all on a flamenco guitar which is always an interesting undertaking
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
Because of some questions on this list about my action, I now adjust it to its lowest position and let the player adjust it higher if preferred; given the action is a correct height for high or low. The current action is 2.5 mm at the 12th fret and about 2.8 mm at the bridge, 6th string.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
Hola Andy
Something I have noticed from the professionals who have played my Gerundino: they begin lukewarm, play a little bit, like it a bit more, adjust to the size of the mástil, width of the fingerboard and separation of the strings and finally end up freaked by the volume and clarity up the the last fret and the richness and the quick response, which almost nobody notices at first.
When a guitarrero presents a guitar to a customer, he plays it for 5 minutes, then accepts or rejects. People must reject some great guitars!
Posts: 3452
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
When a guitarrero presents a guitar to a customer, he plays it for 5 minutes, then accepts or rejects. People must reject some great guitars!
I had my favorite classical on approval for a week. At first I thought something was wrong with it. I was intrigued, though, and knew that if I bought it I could sell it in Japan for more than was asked. I requested a three-day extension of the approval period, then bought it.
After a month I had begun to find what it could do. Now it is my favorite among classicals I have played.
On the other hand, my favorite flamenca knocked my socks off when I first tuned it up and played an E-major chord. From that moment on it has been my favorite.
Posts: 15268
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
All apply except for weight. here is how it goes when I grab a new guitar...and I am sure it follows with other players something quite similar.
1. inspect bridge height over soundboard. better not be too high!!! 2. tune it up. better not take too long. 3. strum E chord....better sound bright and strong and in tune. 4. play some solea and try to find the "sweet spot"...it better have one. 5. evaluate action with those solea pull offs and some picado. 6. bulerias....it better have some punch after finding the sweet playing spot. 7. If any of the above doesn't check out, hand the guitar back and say "me encanta....hermosa guitarra". If all 6 are in the green zone, keep playing some real serious ****. 8. After playing tons of stuff, attempt to find the guitar's "limitations" ....whatever they may be. 9. If you can't find any, take a look at the label....it better say "conde" or "esteso" something or other.
PS. I know some guys just hand the guitar back after number 1.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
I find it hard to subsume what I look for in a flamenco guitar through checking these boxes. Being not a good flamenco player I can't do the tests Ricardo proposed, but I kind of know what I'm looking for if I play that guitar without being able to name it...
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RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
I appreciate the votes and responses. It looks like most people have pretty much the same tastes as me.
To me, a great guitar is one with a voice that won't let you put it down. One that you become addicted to playing.
One thing I was interested in was how much importance people place on certain aesthetic things. At the end of the day I'm going to follow my own intuition on what makes a really cool guitar but it was interesting to see the votes.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
I think you hit it. Follow the norm and expand it to its ultimate limits. Build what looks nice and apply your own personal stamp for voicing. There are many voices calling to us in this music so find the perfect place to draw ones attention to your art.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
One thing about guitars that still mystifies me is action. For my first 8 years or so of playing, my guitars all were too high and I hated it and lusted after a low action. Nowadays, my guitars are all set up with a low classical/high flamenco action. When I play other guitarists' axes, I usually find they are too low for me. When I play guitars at stores, they are all way too high. Salespeople and other guitarists say, "oh, you can just lower that, don't worry about it", but I have found if you do that, often you will get weird buzzes and not be able to dig in at all. So I won't buy a guitar unless it is set up low enough for me already.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
No dead spots on the neck. Evenness and balance across all strings. Short decay and quick attack. Percussive. Round basses and nice bright trebles. Spot on action. If all that checks off, it better not say conde or esteso. And no damn orange.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
quote:
So I won't buy a guitar unless it is set up low enough for me already.
You have very little idea of what it means to sell guitars. We cant just and only build ans sell guitars that suits you. There are so many different tastes out there. If you are not capable of looking through an action that is not 100% perfect for you, then you say no to an enormous amount of instruments and you may end up with one that is far from being the best for you. You should learn some more about guitars. There´s a very famous classical guitarist. When he buys a new guitar, before using it, he sends it to his personal luthier, who takes off the frets and and set up the guitar and neck the way the player wants it. This player knows what he wants and knows how to get it.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
Salespeople and other guitarists say, "oh, you can just lower that, don't worry about it", but I have found if you do that, often you will get weird buzzes and not be able to dig in at all. So I won't buy a guitar unless it is set up low enough for me already.
Miguel, you have a point as guitars are normally set up to where they don't have a buzzing problem, and it takes a certain amount of time for the top to tighten up so that the strings can be lowered.
Don Pohren suggested for players to buy used guitars that had already settled in and had the string action the way players liked them, as most new guitars will always need to be adjusted after a period of time.
Most guitar makers can not wait to have a guitar sit in their shop until it has settled in, so they work on the articulation of the top as best they can before the instrument goes out the door.
But make no mistake, all new guitars will need some adjustment as they age. And every player will have his own idea of the action he likes so this is always going to be an issue that we have to deal with, no matter how the guitar operates when new.
It also takes an experienced player to determine how a guitar will age, to some degree. When I played professionally I learned how to adjust my own guitars the way that felt best for me. This is a prerequisite for players since they might not have a repairman in the neighborhood. It's always best for a player to learn simple adjustment techniques.
And the more a player understands how a guitar works, the better he will produce music from it.
I am new to Flamenco and need assistance in selecting a good guitar. I love how a live flamenco is, thus I will like a guitar that is well balance, lightweight, comfortable and very Andalusian. In my research of several Lutheries I selected three guitars that will do. However, now I cannot decide which one I should buy and need assistance. I will like your opinions of the quality and workmanship (Pros and Conts) of the following guitars; Conde-AF25 1998, Vicente Carrillo-Pasion Flamenco Negra 2013, and the Jeronimo Maya (Vasillis Lazarides) Flamenco Especial Blanca/Negra 2014.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
Hi, If the Conde sounds good, go for it. 1998 is not among the best years for the Condes from Calle Atocha and Calle Gravina 7 (check the label). Those Condes were really outsourced in Valencia. Better quality the Condes from the Felipe V shop in those years. Anyway you must play it before take any decision as the Conde output can be very inconsistent. Carrillo also makes good guitars (kind of industrially made but with good quality standards). Other makers can offer you something more for the money anyway. Recently I played a jeronimo Perez and I found it very good for the money if you like the Conde style guitars (2500 euro). With the same money you have been asked for these guitars you probably could get a better one in Granada.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Echi)
Thank you for the advice. Could you tell me which years are the good ones for the Conde’s guitars of Calle Atocha and Gravina 7? I have seen a 1962 and 68 for less than $2,500. Also, the other day I found a 1945 Estoso for $6,000 which surprised me! I tough that a guitar with the Estoso label will be untouchable or in the high $30 or $40K.
Posts: 15268
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Siulnarom59)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Siulnarom59
Thank you for the advice. Could you tell me which years are the good ones for the Conde’s guitars of Calle Atocha and Gravina 7? I have seen a 1962 and 68 for less than $2,500. Also, the other day I found a 1945 Estoso for $6,000 which surprised me! I tough that a guitar with the Estoso label will be untouchable or in the high $30 or $40K.
1945 Esteso was dead already. Faustino and bros built for widow ... I'm sure label says viuda de Domingo Esteso ... 5-6k is normal price. To this day many flamencos refer to any Conde as "Esteso". 1915-1940 for Esteso, 40-80's for sobrinos/Conde, 90-2010 Felipe V is sons of Mariano Conde, 2011-present is Felipe and son/ daughter vs Mariano and sons. At no point in history should you assume good or bad.... Just try em out or ask someone who plays to help.
RE: What do you look for in a flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
Hi, The first class Condes are those with the typical half moon shaped headstock. They are the only Conde I'd consider.
Up to 1989 the main Conde shop was the one based in Calle Gravina 7 run by Faustino Conde and his wife Juliana Conde Pastor (the same shop once run by Domingo Esteso). Faustino died in 1988 but it's not a secret the last years he was consistently helped by someone else as there was a high output (after Paco those guitars became the standard for many) and our man was old. At the end of the day the shop kept building good guitars and this is what matters. The best years for the Condes - according to many - are the 70ies. Generally speaking good years market wise are 1960 - 1989 but it's to be said that good or bad guitars happen outside every bracket. Not a secret also that the Conde production was very inconsistent: you could find fantastic guitars and less than satisfactory ones in the same bunch. Another shop was based in Calle Atocha: gradually it became not as consistent as the first shop. Eventually the 2 sons of Mariano Conde (Mariano and Felipe) started running a 3rd shop in Calle Felipe V from 1989 to 2011. High quality and priced guitars (Imho the best after the 1989) but anyway different from those made in Gravina shop in the 70ies. The modern Conde sound is tipically the one of the guitars made in Felipe V shop. Nowadays - particularly after the last 2 Conde brothers split - it seems like the old Gravina 7 guitars are those more looked after.
Btw. Even though I have great consideration of the Conde brothers I sold my Conde years ago and more than happy with a Sanchis Carpio negra. Apart of the Sanchis -great guitar- I enjoy a couple of Gerundino and a Jose' Lopez Bellido in these days.
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