Help with triplet rasgueo

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JasonM

Posts: 2061
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

Help with triplet rasgueo

http://youtu.be/7-zBJi2yt0g

I'm looking for some tips on building speed and sound with my triplet Morote rasgueo. Of all the techniques this has always been my worst sounding I think yet it's my favorite technique of flamenco.

I'm using P am P. I can go faster with just the middle finger down, but I'm trying to achieve a less mushy sound and better separation.

I feel like I don't rotate my wrist enough. When I do, my forearm gets burned out really fast. Also, I find it easier on certain chords than others.

Also if my thumbnail is having a bad day it sounds worse, like in this video I recorded. Yesterday was a better day ;)

Here is the crude vid shot on my iPhone 6 plus. I'm kind of embarrassed the house is a mess and I'm having a bad guitar day lol.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2015 20:27:29

rombsix

Posts: 7816
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to JasonM)

I think it sounds OK. As you said, with m down rather than am down, you have less resistance and thus more speed but less volume. Think of the motion as turning a screwdriver or opening a door with a key. It should involve minimal lateral movement from the elbow, and mostly pronation/supination of the forearm. I don't think the wrist has much movement that it needs to do with this technique. You can also think of the p finger and m/am fingers as moving on their own, to provide more force. Think of it as a combination: the fingers completely stationary and all the movement comes from pronation/supination, versus, the forearm being completely without supination/pronation, and the entire movement coming from just extending/flexing the fingers. Once you understand both these movements, you have to find the right balance of both to blend them in, resulting in maximal volume and speed to suit your needs.

If you don't understand what I'm saying via text, I can make you a quick video.

Cheers!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 26 2015 23:04:43

JasonM

Posts: 2061
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to rombsix)

Thanks for your help Ramzi.

Can you tell from the video of I am using to much finger motion or if my wrist is not rotating enough? (Pronation/supination of the Palm is another term for rotation in this context correct?)

I think I've reached a limit in speed because I'm not keeping my fingers loose enough? And movement is not all coming from pro/sup of my forearm. I've been playing around with this for years. I've asked Ricardo a long time ago at a lesson and he said it looked fine, but it's hard to tell what muscles are being used I think).

My wrist is slightly bent down, and it sort of swings. If I keep the wrist straight, and twist from Palm up Palm down motion, my muscles get fatigued quick. Also, I can't control my thumb well if my fingers are flapping around like a weed wacker so to speak. I've been stuck for a long time and I know I'm doing something wrong.

Check out this video of Vicente doing P am P. It's a good shot of him doing it at the end of Gitano de Lucia. I know you've seen it. His motion is exactly as you describe I think. I look at his forearm and see the power coming from there, and his wrist is straight. And it's impossibly fast and perfect.

http://youtu.be/wS85NF8gUzs

Fast forward to the end at time 1:45.20

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2015 0:54:56

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to JasonM)

Practice on everything you can except the guitar. Pay attention to what is coming out of your leg/table edge/steering wheel, eventually you'll get it right and even sounding.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2015 1:41:00

rombsix

Posts: 7816
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to JasonM)

From your video, you seem to have the right posture (good balance between finger motion and rotation from forearm). By pronation/supination I mean the "turning lock in door / screwing via screwdriver" motion, which involves the rotation of the forearm (palm goes from facing up to facing down). You don't need any flexion/extension of the wrist.

Yes, I think fingers being loose will help you. I agree with Ricardo that it looks fine as per your video. No GROSS issues...

Wrist flexion/extension should be minimal. You need to work on the palm-up-palm-down motion with forearm and wrist remaining aligned. With slow practice and time, the fatigue will come after more and more repetitions to the point that it won't get in the way anymore unless you plan on playing a 4-minute piece that is exclusively consisting of this rasgueado.

Don't worry about what your thumb and fingers are doing. The key is pronation/supination.

Vicente is super awesome, dude... Don't feel bad if you can't do what he does. You are not practicing 12 hours a day and doing this solely for a living, right?

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2015 2:59:20

JasonM

Posts: 2061
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to rombsix)

Merhaban Ramzi!

Thanks for the video. You have a knack in the art of explenation, and it's nice to know I'm on the correct track. It wasn't until recently that I learned the power needs to come from the arm not the fingers. All this time I had it wrong.

Now if you were PM&R it would be less psychological and MORE physiological :)

regarding the dead space or economy of motion, Vicente looks like he is really twisting, and I read this as perhaps where his power comes from. In other words, every stoke is given dead space to build momentum. He also has a very Even sound with each strike, something I've had trouble achieving. In order to get MA down to have the power of the thumb, I felt it needed more flick. But to get speed maybe it needs more of a snap from torsion. Perhaps I'm overthinking things, but like I said I havnt made progress in a while.

Yours sounds great by the way.

Rui, I do this on the steering wheel and such. I feel the guitar is more difficult because the nail can catch on the strings.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2015 17:36:33

JasonM

Posts: 2061
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to rombsix)

Watching you again, I guess you are right about economy of motion, Picado being another example. I should practice on confining my reqgion of attack to develop control. Are there actually people who can literally hit just one string? I'd like to see that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2015 18:12:23

rombsix

Posts: 7816
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

Are there actually people who can literally hit just one string? I'd like to see that.

The person who demonstrates that is the one whose name we do not mention on this foro. I showed a glimpse of that in my video. It's not hard... Easier of course on low E or high E.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2015 23:03:11

JasonM

Posts: 2061
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to rombsix)

So I went digging through the man that we do not speak of' many videos. The man has some very good examples and exercises for this I must admit. A man may continue to follow the advice given in those videos but on,y in certain situations.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2015 16:16:08

rombsix

Posts: 7816
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

So I went digging through the man that we do not speak of' many videos. The man has some very good examples and exercises for this I must admit. A man may continue to follow the advice given in those videos but on,y in certain situations.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2015 22:53:25

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

So I went digging through the man that we do not speak of' many videos. The man has some very good examples and exercises for this I must admit. A man may continue to follow the advice given in those videos but on,y in certain situations.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2015 16:02:44

JasonM

Posts: 2061
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to Ricardo)

Uh oh.

Well, what I took from his video was to set the metronome, make an even sound for each stroke, and practice with muted strings.
Oh, and it only works if one has a true modern male guitar. Otherwise a man can not achieve the PDL level of playing.

Is this bad advice?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2015 2:14:28

rombsix

Posts: 7816
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

Well, what I took from his video was to set the metronome, make an even sound for each stroke, and practice with muted strings.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2015 2:52:52

JasonM

Posts: 2061
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to rombsix)

I think he has a very good rasgueo. BUT only with the strings muted. Otherwise it sounds like nails on a chalkboard lol.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2015 23:42:05

Johnvsch

Posts: 19
Joined: May 30 2015

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to JasonM)

Just my 2 cents:
I play it

p i t, p i t etc so: pinky index thump

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2015 15:27:13

Johnvsch

Posts: 19
Joined: May 30 2015

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to Johnvsch)

I did use the p for the pinky normal p for pulgar, thump. Is there a letter for the pinky?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2015 15:45:37

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to Johnvsch)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Johnvsch
Is there a letter for the pinky?

"x" is often used for pinky (in Paco Pena's tabs for example). So the pinky alternative to the triplet rasgueagdo pattern discussed at the start of this thread is p-x-i (up-down-down) p-x-i p-x-i p.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2015 16:56:27

rombsix

Posts: 7816
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to Johnvsch)

quote:

Is there a letter for the pinky?

C for "chico".

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2015 19:37:51

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Help with triplet rasgueo (in reply to rombsix)

pinky= e for extender, c or ch for chiquito, x for extra finger?, and "p" in cases that "P" is used for thumb. That last one leads to confusion IMO. Also I have seen some scores use AMIP for rest stroke and amip for free strokes which I think is useful.

I personally use "e".

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2015 14:31:33