Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar played by Rafa Soler

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Gildeavalle

Posts: 47
Joined: Oct. 26 2012
From: Granada

Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar played...

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Daniel Gil de Avalle Guitar Maker/Luthier:
Classical, Flamenco & Historic Guitars
http://www.gildeavalle.wordpress.com
https://www.facebook.com/guitarrasdegranada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2015 7:17:41

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Gildeavalle)

My personal opinion, and I may get in trouble for saying this, is that the guitar sound is a little too close to the top surface rather than a vowel tone in the middle register... this makes it too metallic sounding than a more vowel sound like a human voice, which projects better. This sound will project somewhat on the treble end but not provide a deeper dimensional mid range quality that speaks to the heart. Just my opinion.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2015 13:50:27

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Gildeavalle)

Tom, youtube compression and webcam mic's hardly give a good sound baseline to go from to even begin to make a judgement on tone. I imagine this guitar sounds quite different in person.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2015 12:35:28

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to tri7/5)

I note that to be reasonable but I hear through certain mic sounds to determine the mid range vowel tones.

I have no axe to grind with this but to say that it lacks certain mid range tone that excites my interests.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2015 13:21:35

Dave K

Posts: 155
Joined: Mar. 29 2006

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Gildeavalle)

Beautiful muy flamenco sound Daniel... Please don't worry about Blackshear's evaluation - It's all BS...(cagada de toro)... Everybody knows this.

Cheers,
Dave

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Avise La Fin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2015 0:53:49

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

My personal opinion, and I may get in trouble for saying this, is that the guitar sound is a little too close to the top surface rather than a vowel tone in the middle register... this makes it too metallic sounding than a more vowel sound like a human voice, which projects better. This sound will project somewhat on the treble end but not provide a deeper dimensional mid range quality that speaks to the heart. Just my opinion.

Is it not a good thing to have DIFFERENT voices? Otherwise, why own more than ONE guitar after all?

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2015 21:39:38

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Ricardo)

Well yeah, but it would take all the fun out of making conversation.

And it was just my impression

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2015 22:54:19

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Please keep in mind one thing. You have the Machiavellian weapon - Vowel Tone Tuning. If we have a gift, we must remain humble and supportive...

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2015 13:45:33

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to SephardRick)

From a teachers point of view and a person willing to share his knowledge, I find your post shortsighted.

As I'm listening to the sound I find some good things about the voicing but it lacks certain strength-depth toward the middle register.

This is a personal calculated view, in my opinion, and as Ricardo said, all guitars are different.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2015 15:41:24

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

From a teachers point of view and a person willing to share his knowledge, I find your post shortsighted

Point noted, sir.

That is really descent of you. I thought you were criticizing the luthier. But, you are offering to help him improve his midrange issue.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2015 18:44:52

Gildeavalle

Posts: 47
Joined: Oct. 26 2012
From: Granada

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Thank you Tom. I really appreciate your pereception. I love constructive opinions. I will attach another video with the same guitarrist Rafa Soler, after a few of years and some videos with other flamenco guitarist Paco Cortes playing for the museum video. I will try to recover another videos of Paco Cortes playing my guitars, Habichuela and others.
Please, it is quite important to me to know your opinion about the evolution of the first one, and the other professional guitaristts playing.
RAFAEL SOLER

PACO CORTÉS

_____________________________

Daniel Gil de Avalle Guitar Maker/Luthier:
Classical, Flamenco & Historic Guitars
http://www.gildeavalle.wordpress.com
https://www.facebook.com/guitarrasdegranada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 5:16:01

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Gildeavalle)

I salute you, Sir.

After all, what I know about guitar building you could fit on the head of a pin.

Its obvious that I hear things through speaker systems that don't tell the whole story.

So please accept my deepest apologies.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 7:50:35

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Gildeavalle)

I like very much this kind of sound: I suppose it is very typical of many guitars from Granada: well defined and deep basses with bright trebles.
My Bellido has the same character and I love it.
It's my experience that many people are quite critical at the beginning but after having played a little this kind of guitar they fall in love with it (it's my case also).

I think Tom Blackshear is right: there is not that boost in the mid-frequencies that makes the note project ahead and gives that "raspy" whole character.
It's not the kind of flamenco guitar of Sabicas or Mario Escudero.

On the other side the sound is more deep and the note doesn't come out as compressed as in the Conde-style guitars and as a consequence you have room to be way more expressive with the vibratos and to work better with the dynamics (to play with the Vicente Amigo style).
Maybe this is the so-called andalusian sound. Imho the guitars from Granada are really under rated considered how much they offer and the average quality.

I'm not aware of guitars able to join very well these 2 personalities but Reyes.
As I don't have the money for a Reyes I am most satisfied with a nice raspy guitar and a nice Granada guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 11:43:34

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Gildeavalle)

Correct me if I´m wrong, but I think YT compression concerns video resolution.

Anyway, you can have good enough audio from YT if the source provides it, and the examples with exception of the last clip seem to allow for a decent impression of the instruments, which again sound like fine stuff to me.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2015 22:29:04

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Ruphus)

Youtube also compresses audio as well depending on the upload. That's why you hear mp3 like washout on some audio. It used to be a lot worse back in the day but not that you can do full HD videos it's not such a big deal. However camera microphones are still terrible.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2015 12:30:17

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Echi)

I think Tom Blackshear is right: there is not that boost in the mid-frequencies that makes the note project ahead and gives that "raspy" whole character.

.............................................................................................................................

This is by no means saying that my guitars are better but to show the difference in the mid range vowel tones.

I prefer this on my classicals, as well as my flamenco models. I consider this my personal preference.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2015 14:24:49

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Gildeavalle)

Youtube is 126 kbps AAC and 165 kbps if the video becomes very popular.

Video quality is a separate thing.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2015 14:33:44

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

to show the difference in the mid range vowel tones

Tom,

The young lady with your classical guitar is very nice...

But, would you have a video handy of an artist performing on one of your flamencos?

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2015 17:10:59

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to SephardRick)

Not that I know of, as most of my flamenco creations have gone to music companies to be sold to unknown players.

The only reference that I have is played by Don Soledad on my website: And since this is the Granada maker's thread I would much prefer

to read what he has to say about his guitars. Thank You.....

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2015 18:25:20

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Gildeavalle)

A shame that there are no more tracks available, and none with better audio quality.
But even these two examples do prove quite well what Tom means, and how it will come through yet with inferiour recordings.

Many years ago, I had been exchanging thoughts with Tom on the AG forum already,(besides considering him to be just another good luthier, - though quite expensive) but when I heard a recording with a guitar of his for the first time, my jaw dropped on the keyboard and I sent him an e-mail with glowing admiration for his ability to build fantastic stuff.

Never having had one in hands, I can´t know about playability and only speculate about how it feels on the right hand (pulsation), but concerning the sound there is no doubt how balanced, separating and articulate things are.

Were I a promissing luthier I would visit him to learn how he does it. It could be making the difference between being good and being outstanding.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2015 19:27:30

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

So, it not just me? That guitar's tone is what I long for... It hits me just right to the point, that I don't care to analyze what it is I like about it.

Tom, I 've said it before. Sometimes I think you are a wizard.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 3 2015 20:10:59

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to SephardRick)

It's nothing more than accumulated knowledge over a 55 year span in my building career.

As you already know I have recently shared this knowledge with Manuel Adalid, one of the principles of the Esteve guitar factory in Valencia.

By my sharing, it has put this technique on the wider market for my teaching classes.

And this is what I like to do to raise the level of the art for all guitar makers.

It is not something new but still practiced by some of Spain's top builders.

Perhaps not exactly the same, as my technique, but very close to being akin to it.

I believe that Manuel Reyes and Miguel Rodriguez had this knowledge, to some extent.

After examining their work over a period of years I began to see little changes and modifications that drew a picture of their progressive knowledge.

And due to Daniel Gil de Avalle introducing us to his work, I would like to read more about his art.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2015 12:59:33

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

As you already know I have recently shared this knowledge with Manuel Adalid, one of the principles of the Esteve guitar factory in Valencia

The Adalid video was impressive too, to say the least. The application of your fine tuning method made the guitar much more musical.

It will be interesting to see if those, whom you have shared your technique with, can produce a comparable sounding instrument to yours.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2015 14:43:05

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Gil de Avalle Flamenco Guitar pl... (in reply to SephardRick)

Here is a young lady playing one of Manuel's first guitars he sent to me for fine tuning.

This guitar has been sold and I long longer tune his classical guitars due to his learning the fine tuning process well.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2015 18:00:44