Bringing a guitar to Spain

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constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Bringing a guitar to Spain

Does anyone know what happens when someone arrives in Spain from the USA with a guitar that was made in the USA? Do customs agents at the airport force you to pay duty and taxes on it even if you claim that you brought it with you to take lessons on? What about 2 guitars?...

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 0:42:28

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

Does anyone know what happens when someone arrives in Spain from the USA with a guitar that was made in the USA? Do customs agents at the airport force you to pay duty and taxes on it even if you claim that you brought it with you to take lessons on? What about 2 guitars?...

When I arrived at barajas late evening last year...there was not even border police...some guy looked like a janitor waved us all through and around the customs straight to baggage and got our luggage...no stamp no nothing.....oh but now I remember we went through heathrow...

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 6:14:05

minorthang

Posts: 222
Joined: Dec. 25 2014

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

some borders in Europe are great of seen security smoking not care that much.

maybe as an idea you can take old guitar cases ?? stickers on them or similar to pretend old guitars ??

if they ask a few questions babble to them like you speak a tribal language

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 9:30:32

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to minorthang)

I've never heard that one would have to pay import duty for items brought with you, that would be crazy, besides why would anyone take interest in a guitar one is travelling with, never mind asking money for it?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 10:25:17

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I've been stopped for bringing a guitar to Europe, although in this case it was not Spain. They certainly wanted to insure that it was mine and not for sale. They were after money, plain and simple. I have also heard of people posting bonds as it were, paying the import duties and getting the money back upon exiting the country with the instrument in question. Generally speaking, crossing borders has become a much bigger pain the rear than it used to be.

Aaron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 11:27:16

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to aarongreen)

Thanks for the info, Guys. Especially Aarongreen!

When I sent a guitar to Spain, they held me by the ankles and shook and shook. I think it was about $1000 per $2000 worth of guitar for duty and taxes. I figure I might as well go there IF I could avoid that.

Minorthang, I like your idea of an old case with travel stickers. That's worth a try.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 15:26:43

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to tele)

I would also consider contacting spanish customs in this case just to be sure.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 16:02:12

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

any brw on the guitar? if so then paperwork may be needed. as i understand it the european union ban date is 1947 and not 1992.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 16:20:44

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

You might convince them that a single guitar was for personal use. Two would probably make them far more suspicious. The guitar I usually travel with has "1967" on the label, and shows a respectable but not excessive amount of wear, so I haven't had much trouble convincing customs agents.

My impression is that the guitar industry in Spain is rather concerned about foreign competition, especially from China, so the customs people might be pushed to be strict about collecting import duties.

When I bought my Contreras "doble tapa" in 1991, Manuel Sr. had a fictitious receipt made showing a much lower price than I actually paid for it. He did it without being asked. I was always careful to declare full value and pay the import duty when I came into the USA with a new guitar.

I think the last time anyone looked in my luggage was in 2003 at Mexico City. There they had one of those setups where you push a button and a computer randomly flashes a red or green light. When the red light flashes, your stuff gets searched. The young woman who looked at my stuff was very respectful and let me take the guitar out of its case and hand it to her.

Recently the U.S. TSA people seem to be paying more attention to guitars. They must have gotten a tip about someone putting a bomb in a guitar case. If I check the guitar in its flight case, I hang around the X-ray machine until it goes through. If they decide to look in the case, they let me unlock the case and help handle the instrument. The last time anyone looked was at least 10 years ago.

When Spain first went went from the peseta over to the euro and started collecting the Value Added Tax, guitars were exempt from the sales tax. I don't know whether this is still the case, or whether it would apply to guitars made outside of Spain.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 16:24:40

minorthang

Posts: 222
Joined: Dec. 25 2014

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

especially from China

really Richard ? i live in china and dont feel the luithiers are that caught up with making flamencos guitar ? classical yes

with the stickers where the worst clothes also

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 16:35:20

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to minorthang)

minorthang--there are several big nylon guitar companies that are having flamenco guitars made in china. cordoba and guitar salon flamenco guitars come to mind as does alhambra. yamaha may also have their flamenco guitar made in china or thereabouts (not japan). many years ago i played one of g.s.i.'s chinese flamenco guitars. i have to say they had a good handle on what a flamenco guitar should sound like.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 17:08:52

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to keith)

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

any brw on the guitar? if so then paperwork may be needed. as i understand it the european union ban date is 1947 and not 1992.

Is it really 47, that would mean europeans would use very old woods. Somehow I've always thought any brw cut before 1992 with certificate would be ok in any country...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 19:18:31

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to minorthang)

I was thinking of pressure from the bigger Spanish manufacturers. And I'm not sure the average customs officer would reliably distinguish classical from flamenco.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 21:03:05

minorthang

Posts: 222
Joined: Dec. 25 2014

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

sure keith yes those models are made in china - was thinking higher range models .

interestingly found the cordoba model more expensive here than in the states .

in regards to 100% hand made flamenco guitars i think yu long guo ( 玉龙)from guangzhou(广州） has made a few - bit as most hes noted for classical guitar .

with customs in china to bring a guitar aross (will/may possibly )
be a 20% additional fee - yet if you have guanxi (关系)

you can give customs a good packet of cigarettes and say wonderful things about Chinese culture - im about to try it in the next few weeks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 23:32:04

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to tele)

tele--from the horse's mouth

http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/update-brazilian-rosewood-preconvention-imports-eu.pdf

ethan, one thing that might be important. are the two guitars you are bringing in one's you built? if so then I could imagine the border police thinking you are bringing them in to sell.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2015 23:52:09

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to tele)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

any brw on the guitar? if so then paperwork may be needed. as i understand it the european union ban date is 1947 and not 1992.

Is it really 47, that would mean europeans would use very old woods. Somehow I've always thought any brw cut before 1992 with certificate would be ok in any country...

Paper worked needed and "with certificate" is the same thing right? So, let me get it straight then...
My dad's guitar, 1968 BRW, if i wanted to sell it abroad, I need paper work of some sort that I get from cites after letting them inspect it??? YES OR NO?

If I want to travel with a BRW guitar as a personal item, I need paper work only if it is younger than 1992...or need paper work anyway?

It's all F k d up and confusing and frustating and makes no sense.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2015 1:09:58

liv

Posts: 12
Joined: Mar. 1 2013

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I have traveled 6 times from the US to Europe, different countries. I have never had any issues except ONE time when a security in guy in holland asked me about my guitar. He asked to see it. It was brand new. He asked if I bought it in the US, I told him I bought it before I went to the US, he asked if I had a receipt, I said no and that I didn't think of bringing a receipt on my travel and that was the end of it. This was about 7 years ago when security on airports was really tough. So for what its worth I think you will have no problems at all.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2015 6:19:40

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I am sure nobody is trying to evade paying tax – because I know that it would be crazy to declare such an intention on a forum open to public view, and anyway the thread would be closed immediately.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2015 9:42:26

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

any brw on the guitar? if so then paperwork may be needed. as i understand it the european union ban date is 1947 and not 1992.

Is it really 47, that would mean europeans would use very old woods. Somehow I've always thought any brw cut before 1992 with certificate would be ok in any country...

Paper worked needed and "with certificate" is the same thing right? So, let me get it straight then...
My dad's guitar, 1968 BRW, if i wanted to sell it abroad, I need paper work of some sort that I get from cites after letting them inspect it??? YES OR NO?

If I want to travel with a BRW guitar as a personal item, I need paper work only if it is younger than 1992...or need paper work anyway?

It's all F k d up and confusing and frustating and makes no sense.

I don't know, I've always thought if the guitar had papers for the wood before 92 or that the guitar was made before 92 it would be sin problemas internationally. I'm glad I don't do intercontinental travel, especially to USA since that's when most of the problems seem to emerge.

I really don't get though the idea of paying tax for a guitar one has purchased in person. Out of principle I would evade tax paying any way I could.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2015 11:46:31

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

here is the europe report. i did not do an exact count but it appears 50% or more of the reference citations are "anon" (as in anonymous). lucky us, people lurking in the inky shadows are contributing to policy.

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/cites/pdf/Dalbergia%20Report_FIN%2020%2012%202012.pdf

an interesting blog about obtaining a passport for one's guitar--of course money paid to the feds is required.

http://www.fretboardjournal.com/blog/have-guitar-passport-will-travel

on the plus side a squeaky wheel can get greased. back in september the fish and wildlife service was re-evaluating its' ivory policy for musical instruments (namely ivory used in bows). after numerous incidents of grabbing bows the wheels began to loudly squeak.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2015 12:59:51

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to keith)

CITES just seems a little overboard. What do they do if they see an endangered animal EATING an endangered plant???

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2015 17:57:35

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo, if you think CITES is screwy, think about this logic--in order to prevent illegal ivory from entering the USA those who have legal ivory or Archetiers trying to make a living are under very rigid rules yet one can legally hunt up to 2 elephants each year. Go figure?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2015 21:44:47

timoteo

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: Bringing a guitar to Spain (in reply to keith)

quote:

those who have legal ivory

Well, part of the problem is that *everyone* claims they have legal ivory, which evidently they have been keeping in their basement for the past 50 years since before the ban. We all know that isn't true in many if not most cases, yet for the most part people are willing to accept that all the people selling "legal" ivory are telling the truth. Do you accept the same assurances from people selling "legal" prescription drugs over the internet?

Frankly, a lot of people who buy and/or make instruments are complicit in the trade of illegal ivory - they buy it from someone and don't ask or don't want to know how it was really obtained. They just turn a blind eye to the problem while providing incentives to the poachers who slaughter the elephants just to cut off their tusks. Even *legal* ivory trade drives demand, and that demand sustains the illegal trade.

Because so many people have abused the system and there seems to be no practical way to reliably differentiate between legally obtained and illegally obtained ivory, a ban on all ivory trade seems pretty reasonable to me.

And yes, the hunting exemption is pretty huge loophole, but if the law permits trade in "legal" ivory then it almost has to have a provision for ivory legally hunted in its country of origin. I think it would be better to ban all ivory trade, legally obtained or not.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2015 23:36:45