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I read here once that flamenco music has some arabic influences so lately I've been searching for some arabic music on YouTube. Couldn't point out any significant similarities! (maybe both genres focus a lot on rhythm? ) But that might be, for the most part, due to me being under the impression that, and FWIW, Eastern (and arabic music) uses quarter tones and new types of scales. While in flamenco, like all western music, it's the normal semi tones.. so I find this whole thing about arabic influences in flamenco music a bit strange yet quite interesting you know.. like just HOW? since you normally cant play quarter tones on the guitar I believe.
Could you good people school me on this relationship between flamenco and arabic music? I'd really love to know about the subject.
And just out of curiosity, players here who might be familiar with both types of music, which one you might feel like there's more to it to explore and learn about, say in terms of the rhythms, the different styles...
Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
quote:
Could you good people school me on this relationship between flamenco and arabic music?
Perhaps you only listen to Flamenco *guitar*? If you listen to cante, I think the similarities are pretty obvious, to the point where when I cruise down the street and let the Alpine play, pumping some sh*t by Paquera de Jerez, I'm concerned someone is going to call the police and report me as a "terrorist".
Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
If you listen to this video from the "Montoya family" with lola from "lola Y Manuel" later in time you here them even sing in the arabic language at 1:05 min. http://youtu.be/w4FIWUVrYOc
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
quote:
And just out of curiosity, players here who might be familiar with both types of music, which one you might feel like there's more to it to explore and learn about, say in terms of the rhythms, the different styles...
There is not both.. there is flamenco. Usually I hear people ouside Spain that think that flamenco is a just mixture of musics Western/Estern. But there are more than scales and harmony. In the ancient flamenco, in the roots outside the stages and without guitar, the most important part of flamenco is Expression. From these expresion flamenco has developed his wide variety of style to express your feelings. From the deepest and darkest depression and tragic feeling of matinetes to the crazy euphory of bulerias. From the more close privacy of nanas to the social frivolity of rumbas. This search about how to express your feelings is thousand times more important than music itself. And this is because cante is always beyond guitar.
Guitar is really difficult, hard, and ungrateful ("una hija de puta", as Paco always said) but is an instrument with finites notes and a western philosophy behind notes and therefore limited. The Estern part of flamenco is almost in cante and interation bettween musicians El cante take thesse Estern sounds from the Andalusian cultural heritage, but just like a tool. An guitar is just a support for cante.
Be sure. You can bend your strings how you want you only get scraps of the bulk of flamenco. You want explore, then do not explore scales, explore how to express a certain feeling starting the work that others carried out.
Other way you are in the classical sentence in many Spaniards of "A mi me gusta el flamenco, pero solo la guitarra y las bulerías". Therefore, they do not like flamenco. A siguirilla is too much for them.
For years there were a bunch of pseudo-pop groups that explore scales and harmony from flamenco, even rhythms, and even with musicians that came from flamenco, but there are not homogeneous, and most of them finally say that the don't do flamenco because flamenco are the ancient flamenco. Most of then want ·explore· from the theory and the Western/Estern mixture vision. Some days ago, on of these band called El Grupo del Hortelano separated. His last epitaph was "Llegamos al flamenco desde la ignoracia y nos vamos desde el respeto"= "We arrive from ignorance and leve from the respect". My impression is that this approach Ester/Western result always on the same.
You can follow an approach totally based on Ester/wester, but in flamenco these should be just tools. The more interesting exploration in flamenco is always based in the expression and interaction with other people and the voice.
Listening to Morente or good siguirilleros and you can find lots of Estern sounds. The most intersting is always in the voices...
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
Hi,
it is not traditional, but listen to Flamenco violin (ex. pansequito, à quien le dejo mi cante). Clearly arabic sounding, though I have no idea about arabic music
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
Thanks for the replies everyone. Watching these videos it makes more since now..
I expected it's me and yes I don't listen to enough cante. 90% of what I listen to is Paco and for the most part its solo guitar music. So this could be it of course.
@jmb, I really appreciate your answer. But when you said there's not both, there is flamenco.. not sure I really got what you mean.. so you say any eastern or arabic music is just part of what flamenco is! Cos I dont find that to make much sense.. my understanding is that arabic music is another world of music that flamenco has SOME of it due to the Andalusian culture like you said so that might explain why I asked which music genre you guys here would see as more diverse.. flamenco or arabic! Now flamenco might not be seen as a music genre. It's feelings and emotions so such comparison might not make sense I believe..
BTW, I came to understand a while back that flamenco is cante and the guitar came later to accompany the cante (and the baile too) so solo flamenco guitar is just a small part of what flamenco really is. But here comes another STRANGE queston resulting here.. why the guitar then? why not an eastern sort of instrument was chosen instead to be played in flamenco since cante has that much of an eastern sound in it? Wouldn't that make more sense?!!!... says the guy, me, who every time he listens to Paco he asks himself.. could it be ever played any more perfect?
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to chester)
quote:
ORIGINAL: chester
You can play both melody and chords on a guitar. It's cheaper and easier to carry around than a piano.
That's my guess.
Agreed. But do you actually see the piano as an eastern instrument! My understanding is the piano doesn't play quarter tones, which is an essential part of a lot of arabic/eastern music.
My question is why people at the time didn't go for an instrument that actually could play quarter tones instead of the guitar? Rhythm on guitar shines, granted and the guitar is a fantastically versatile instrument, no question.. but since cante has much of that eastern sound, wouldn't say falsetas (since they're are inspired by the cante) be played/expressed better or easier on an eastern instrument that can actually play quarter tones?
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
The guitar IS Spanish as is flamenco, so it was something that was.......for lack of a better term, readily available. As well, flamenco is modal and falsetas are something that probably developed a little while after it had accompanied singers for a while. The didn't listen to cante and think "what instrument can I play pretty falsetas on to accompany this singing??" They thought "my guitar(which I already have) can play an A while he sings that." The first cante guitar pairings were probably a very stripped down strummed chords where appropriate in the combios of the cante. THEN, a while later came the cafe cantantes and virtuoso players etc...
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
Guess one could ask why so many guitars in Spain ? The guitar is capable of quarter tones - through ornamentation such as slight bends, vibrato combined with ligado etc etc I hear this in the playing of Vicente amigo for instance ( unless my ears are failing ) ... Among others But used to a different effect to say traditional eastern or Arabic music
I think some answers have already been covered with these points - though there is a huge element of historical 'unknowing ' flamenco isn't an arabic music - influenced by cultural osmosis , but not a re invention or re creation - it also combines other musics , notably sephardic and other regional music from the peninsula and elsewhere -such as music by the celts etc - possibly - geographically there was a lot of music going on - but ultimately created in what is perceived as the 'west'
as a cante accomp instrument traditional arabic instruments are less like 'lap pianos' for want of a better term - the guitar seems a more 'stable' instrument for providing moving harmony as well as static drones or modal progressions - hey it's a great versatile instrument !! :-) So the answer may lie in its use as an accompaniment instrument - and guitars were common, less so than oud's, Sars etc
- even in arabic or indian music the 'drone' or modal tonic needs to be more 'stable' pitch wise ... Usually the melody will incorporate quarter tones, not the accompaniment - flamenco uses both modality and tonality so in hindsight guitar works well ..
But pretty sure these points weren't even considered by early flamencos
I agree with Leandor of how it found its way into the music .. No great mystery .. It was Easily avail and it worked ,
One possible exploration of the idea is to rip the frets out of a cheap guitar and try a few falseta's ... I think when playing any sort of chord - double stop or arpeggio - may reveal quite a bit of insight
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to chester)
Apologies Chester A bout of dim witted laziness ...and dropping a vowel here and there Never underestimate yourself ... Leave that for everyone else ...
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
quote:
ORIGINAL: WGuitar
Thanks for the replies everyone. Watching these videos it makes more since now..
I expected it's me and yes I don't listen to enough cante. 90% of what I listen to is Paco and for the most part its solo guitar music. So this could be it of course.
@jmb, I really appreciate your answer. But when you said there's not both, there is flamenco.. not sure I really got what you mean.. so you say any eastern or arabic music is just part of what flamenco is! Cos I dont find that to make much sense.. my understanding is that arabic music is another world of music that flamenco has SOME of it due to the Andalusian culture like you said so that might explain why I asked which music genre you guys here would see as more diverse.. flamenco or arabic! Now flamenco might not be seen as a music genre. It's feelings and emotions so such comparison might not make sense I believe..
BTW, I came to understand a while back that flamenco is cante and the guitar came later to accompany the cante (and the baile too) so solo flamenco guitar is just a small part of what flamenco really is. But here comes another STRANGE queston resulting here.. why the guitar then? why not an eastern sort of instrument was chosen instead to be played in flamenco since cante has that much of an eastern sound in it? Wouldn't that make more sense?!!!... says the guy, me, who every time he listens to Paco he asks himself.. could it be ever played any more perfect?
Simply because it was the most popular instrument at the time. The role of cante and guitar is similar to arabic singing and oud ....indeed the guitar has evolved from the oud concept. (Since you love Paco listen to the arabic flavor of Almoraima). Also the guitar is a quiet intimate instrument that blends well for vocalists in intimate settings. It is further interesting to note that the modern guitar design (A. Torres) was developing at an important time in flamenco's history (cante development).
I think what JMB was getting at is that flamenco exists in a form such that we can't readily see the separate elements clearly...not that Arbic music does not exist, but rather, you can't get to a specific melody or something like that and say "this Saeta is directly from the muslim call to prayer, and indirectly influence on tona and martinete" etc... the relationship is there but it is more superficial. I would extend this further and say modern flamenco being characterized by jazz elements is also a superficial generalization.
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to chester)
quote:
[milanlondons:] A great movie / documentary depicting the journey of flamenco from India to Spain is Latcho Drome. Enjoy.
quote:
[Chester:] It is a great movie, but I don't see it as being about flamenco. Gypsies probably.
I agree with Chester. Latcho Drom is about gypsies in the various countries where they settled. It shows the importance of music in their culture, and how they have a lot of brilliant musicians amongst them. And it shows how they adopted the local music of each area in which they settled. There was no "journey of flamenco from India to Spain".
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
Flamenco and even spanish people and their culture have lots of similarities with arabic culture, to me at least it seems like almost as much as with gypsy culture.
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to tele)
It is likely that the origins of flamenco will never be satisfactorily explained. It may turn out to be relatively new, like jazz and the blues, each coalescing out of musical odds, ends, and trends that nobody in a position to accurately record or research was interested in at the time. The music of peasants, rural people, wanderers was not important, though occasionally a trained composer might weave a bit of heard folk tune into some work. It is noteworthy that Bela Bartok and Zoltan Kodaly in Hungary, Ralph Vaughan Williams in England, and Leos Janacek in Czechoslovakia were active in seeking out and studying their folk musics only very late in the 19th and well into the 20th centuries. And without sound recordings, it is difficult to form an aural picture of what these musics actually sounded like, let alone how they came into being. But as we know, as the 19th century wound down, many composers became entranced by Spanish folk music in general, and flamenco in particular. I love this quote from French composer Immanuel Chabrier: "We make the rounds of the cafe concerts, where they sing the malagueñas, the soledas, the zapateados and the pateneras; then the dances, which are positively Arabian, that sums it up. If you could see them wriggling their behinds, twisting and squirming, I don't think you'd care to leave."
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
Very nice answers. Thanks y'all.
I was still expecting some replies for the comparison between flamenco and arabic music, maybe from arab players if there's some here.
BTW, has anybody here tried to play a flaseta on say an oud or maybe a fretless guitar as AlVal suggested? How did it work out?
Guess it might be a good idea to experiment with, that instead of having a guitar or two to accompany cante, we could, well occasionally, use say an oud (to play flasetas) and a guitar (to play rhythm).. just saying!
I'm pretty certain the link between flamenco and Arab music is as Ricardo said, "superficial". It just kinda sounds Arab due to it being in a sort "Phrygian key". I'm fairly sure that there's no direct lines that can be connected, and if they're ever was they were diluted over a hundred years ago.
I'm pretty certain the link between flamenco and Arab music is as Ricardo said, "superficial". It just kinda sounds Arab due to it being in a sort "Phrygian key". I'm fairly sure that there's no direct lines that can be connected, and if they're ever was they were diluted over a hundred years ago.
Yeah, thanks alot Lenador for posting this. That's exactly what I'm talking about. One might agree that the link between flamenco and arabic music is "superficial" but, I guess, can readily see that the oud here in this video, regradless of whether this was top notch playing or not, did imitate the sound of cante just as well as the guitar, if not slightly better imho. I guess more of this should be seen on a regular basis..
Now similarities between flamenco and arabic music aside, which do you find like it has more variety in terms of the rhythms, the different styles..etc. that's what I hope I get some answers for from players here, especially the arab players if there's some here..
p.s. You just posted the wiki link Lenador! I'm giving it a read now..
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
Coincidentally I just got back from having hookah with an Arab friend of mine and brought this topic up. He's not really a flamenco fan but he did remind me that there's no such genre as "Arab music" that term would encompass a huge variety of genres and styles and would kind of be like saying "American music", what american music? Bluegrass? Jazz? Thrash Metal? Hip Hop? He mentioned a good book about a primer on Arab music but now 4 IPA's deep i've forgot lol, I'll text him and see what it was again.
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
Since arabs have had a noticeable cultural influence on andalucia and flamenco is andalucian music, how can it be that there is no arabic influences in flamenco? Gypsies have also likely encountered arabic music during their road from india to europe and wouldn't be surprised if the phrygian tonality in flamenco would come from there and even when indian music has dominant phrygian tonalities, it's much more noticeable in arabic music.
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
Thanks everyone!
So the phrygian tonality might have come from arabic music. Nice video beno, thanks for sharing. Let me know please if you could get that book title again Lenador. Good to know about arabic music from arab players (no one here?)
RE: Flamenco and Arabic... How? (in reply to WGuitar)
quote:
or maybe a fretless guitar as AlVal suggested?
ive played my friends fretless acoustic steel string { hes more an improviser/free jazz player} - i really liked it- automatically you kind of search for those modes and tones...chords are more problematic even the standard flamenco fingering of an A chord leaves the C# on the second string flat...so imagine a bit of left hand work needed to adjust i am in the process of converting a cheap classical to a fretless it has had the finish taken off - frets out - some work on the bridge set up -and a soundport added maybe a few weeks till its strung up and playable - figure it will have an almost zero action...and lose about 80 per cent of its volume..so have an old B-Band pickup that i may install..also lots of spare sets of Saverez Red Card...
who knows - i may end up geting a proper one made...but for now its just a project for my own amusement - i also 'jam' a bit with some local persian musicians so may find a use for it in that context
stumbled across these vids...maybe of some interest...but not much there on you tube regarding fretless flamenco guitars unfortunately
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) But that might be, for the most part, due to me being under the impression that, and FWIW, Eastern (and arabic music) uses quarter tones and new types of scales. While in flamenco, like all western music, it's the normal semi tones.. so I find this whole thing about arabic influences in flamenco music a bit strange yet quite interesting you know.. like just HOW? since you normally cant play quarter tones on the guitar I believe. 
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