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'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo voices.
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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 RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
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If one takes a longer historical perspective, I would say as a generalization that gitano singers as a group tend(ed) to have more rajo in their voices than payo singers. Of course , there will be many exceptions to this. I also concur that, with the passage of time, there has been a general trend to make cante more audience-friendly by selecting for better-looking, better-groomed, and more "normal"- sounding singers, especially cantaoras, in order to attract and hold a larger and more naive public for flamenco. Agujetas once said, not that long ago, that he, La Paquera, and Chocolate were the last three real flamenco singers still alive and plying their trade.......
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Date Feb. 5 2015 23:31:10
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jmb
Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain
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RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
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Thanks for your reply guys.
I just explain why my questions.
I think it is a really interesting question. Obviously, as you say, it is a cultural way, not a racial, of understanding music. 'Capullo' is a good example, in the environment of Jeréz where gypsies are integrated with 'payos'.
My questions arose from a discussion with a friend, a good aficionado, about a perception that I though it was only mine, but he though the same. It is that outside Cadiz, for example in Madrid or Sevilla where the gipsy community is lees integrated, amateurs flamenco gypsies singers or even children, specially in outcast communities, have usually a beautiful natural 'rajo' despite a worst (or totally unknown) academic technique or skills. For me, this mixtures of interpretation and timbres at the same time cannot be found in most professional singers (of course, a personal opinion) .
As you probably know, this communities conserve an strong Spanish accent and a large number of gypsy words respecting the ‘payo’ community.
José Mercé say that, in the last 40 years there are not appear a voice that really hurts and Camarón (a very special voice anyway) talked in some footages about he trained in order to 'aquejar la voz' ...
It is really interesting for you point of view!
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Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!
Sing and string - other flamenco blog
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Date Feb. 6 2015 8:40:47
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orsonw
Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London
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RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
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quote:
My questions arose from a discussion with a friend, a good aficionado, about a perception that I though it was only mine, but he though the same. It is that outside Cadiz, for example in Madrid or Sevilla where the gipsy community is lees integrated, amateurs flamenco gypsies singers or even children, specially in outcast communities, have usually a beautiful natural 'rajo' despite a worst (or totally unknown) academic technique or skills.
Thank you for the thread and everyone's posts.
I imagined and hoped there would be more raw singers in Spain that would never be heard of outside it, either because they would not want to be commercialized, or would not be considered worth commercializing by the record companies.
For those like me, not easily able to participate in gypsy juergas! I do hope that commercially available flamenco jondo may still have a resurgence after this smooth phase. As I wrote before I realise flamenco in an intimate juerga is generally more raw and emotional compared to in an international commercial setting.
I notice recently there have been a few more jondo moments on some contempory flamenco artists albums e.g. David de Jacoba with Pepe Habichuela por seguiryas Montse Cortes with Juan el le pipa por solea bulerias, Israel fernandez with Paco Cepero por seguriyia/tientos David Palomar por seguiryas (the rest of their cds ruined for me by synthesizer pads, fretless bass, chorus etc..),
As you suggest these 'rajo' timbres are not found so much in professional singers but what's the best we can do? Anyone know some good younger singers we can hear without needing to be invited into a gypsy "outcast community"!? Rancapino Hijo, Antonio Reyes?
El Perla's toque also seems more 'rajo' if that term can be applied to toque. Or did you mean the sound of the guitar itself?
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Date Feb. 6 2015 9:25:10
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to jmb)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jmb
Thanks for your reply guys.
I just explain why my questions.
I think it is a really interesting question. Obviously, as you say, it is a cultural way, not a racial, of understanding music. 'Capullo' is a good example, in the environment of Jeréz where gypsies are integrated with 'payos'.
My questions arose from a discussion with a friend, a good aficionado, about a perception that I though it was only mine, but he though the same. It is that outside Cadiz, for example in Madrid or Sevilla where the gipsy community is lees integrated, amateurs flamenco gypsies singers or even children, specially in outcast communities, have usually a beautiful natural 'rajo' despite a worst (or totally unknown) academic technique or skills. For me, this timbres cannot be found in most professional singers (of course, a personal opinion) .
As you probably know, this communities conserve an strong Spanish accent and a large number of gypsy words respecting the ‘payo’ community.
José Mercé say that, in the last 40 years there are not appear a voice that really hurts and Camarón (a very special voice anyway) talked in some footages about he trained in order to 'aquejar la voz' ...
It is really interesting for you point of view!
I think you and your amigo are generalizing and finding conclusions that could be incidental. Specific examples would help IMO. I will say there are many people in spain, singer or not, with a rajo voice when simply speaking. In my head I hear these folks and think they would sound nice singing some solea if they knew how. THe simple fact is that most amatures sing with their "talking" voice, and have no understanding of their optimal singing range, and most proffesionals discover a completely different voice they possess that works much better than the other voice for certain situations. For example, Chocolate sings some pop song in Rito y Geografia showing he has a totally different voice he uses for flamenco. Zambo on the other hand I dont' think could sing any other way than he does. Hope that makes sense.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Feb. 6 2015 14:55:27
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: 'Das experiment' on gipsy/payo v... (in reply to Leñador)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
Pretty sure Estrella Morente is a gitana and her voice is smooth as silk. On the flipside, Fosforito isn't gitano (i don't think) and he's got a good rajo, especially as he got older....
Estrella's father Enrique was a payo. This was brought up frequently during the time he was severely criticized by the purists for his innovations. Apparently her mother Aurora Carbonell de Morente is gitana, judging from this quote in an article in El Pais from a little over a year ago:
"Aurora era una bailaora madrileña de 17 años cuando en su camino se cruzó Enrique. 'Al ser yo tan chica y él un payo, mis padres se opusieron...' "
http://cultura.elpais.com/cultura/2013/12/23/actualidad/1387828686_640713.html
I think an interesting case is Antonio Chacon. Born a payo, he was orphaned at an early age and raised by a gitano cobbler in a gitano barrio in Jerez. His early professional work was with the gitano brothers, tocaor Javier and bailaor Antonio Molina. Yet Chacon's voice was smooth, without rajo, and his pronunciation was much more payo than gitano.
I don't think you can safely conclude a singer's race or cultural background from their vocal style, though there may be generalizations--with notable exceptions.
RNJ
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Date Feb. 6 2015 23:49:29
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