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RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to rogeliocan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rogeliocan
Interesting post, generous sharing of your time. Do you have an idea of the consistency of specs for the guitars built at that time? I mean, have you had a chance to look at a decent sample set of guitars to verify that they were actually built the same way? and that, at least for the same builder (as their might be variance between builders in the same shop???).
I am curious to know if they had 'strict' building practices or if it was pretty lose. Thanks
Most of this I can't answer for you except the three patterns I Have in my shop. I met with Faustino Conde in 1965 when I was in Madrid but I spoke very little Spanish and there was no ongoing dialog.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
A follow up will be put in place for the shaping of the fan braces, hopefully tonight. There will be a change from the Conde brace shape to more like a 1948 Barbero guitar I built some years ago, back in the 70's; more toward a half round instead of a pyramid style.
Also, due to the slightly smaller box with a shorter playing scale, there had to be a modification of the brace's length; although ever-so-slight. But the ideal fan brace placement was kept with the original guitar's design.
And with this modification I will try and explain the fine tuning process, which might take several posts to complete.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)
quote:
ORIGINAL: SephardRick
quote:
think I'll start the top first
Tom,
This is fascinating stuff!
Just being a player,I do have a question...What is important to you when selecting a top - or any other part during construction?
Rick,
I have been building guitars since 1958 and in 1974, when I went back to building full time, I built a flamenco guitar with western red cedar fence post material; with wide grain and low quality music wood.
The sound was phenomenal and I still have that guitar, but I would never sell it as it looks terrible. Also, it's in need of tuning peg replacement. What I'm trying to say is that guitar tone is in the hands of each individual builder, not so much from a set rule of wood quality.
I give this as my own personal opinion with the two types of wood I use, Spruce and Cedar.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Interesting....seems you focus a lot more on those braces than the top itself? Or that comes later maybe?
Ricardo,
Actually I set the bracing to it's fundamental size and shape, with an even thickness top; about 2 mm for this pattern. And after the top is installed I deal with the top; graduating its thickness where needed, and then I finish off the brace tuning after the guitar has been French polished, and has been played for awhile.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
This is a little addition to this thread as RE Brune just contacted me that he had a 1999 Blackshear-Barbero style flamenco for sale that has been to war but with a good price; very flamenco.
I spend two months fine tuning this puppy before I sold it to Brune, which he sold to a fellow who didn't take care of it.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
I'm going to try and upload a fuller explanation of the fan braces and what brace effects certain strings, as the top is near its finish with the bracing. This upload will be later tonight, God willing.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
Here is more extended information about the top construction. I will leave off for awhile until I get the guitar together and playing, or perhaps some additional thoughts, if I can remember them
Click on the link below to watch the 13 minute video........
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RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear
This is a little addition to this thread as RE Brune just contacted me that he had a 1999 Blackshear-Barbero style flamenco for sale that has been to war but with a good price; very flamenco.
I spend two months fine tuning this puppy before I sold it to Brune, which he sold to a fellow who didn't take care of it.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Curious why you (if you did this) and other luthiers sometimes put the color finish OVER The rosette rather than mask it so the colors aren't ruined?
I put the finish on the rosette, as this is the way I've done it for 53 years. I don't mask it. The colors are not ruined, imho, but have a certain patina under the finish as most older traditional guitars have. I think that the newer style masking is a little over done, almost decal like. Just my opinion. I agree that this particular finish is a little darker than I usually finish with but I was trying for a little more aged look.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
I think that the newer style masking is a little over done, almost decal like. Just my opinion. I agree that this particular finish is a little darker than I usually finish with but I was trying for a little more aged look.
I knew it all along, rosettes by younger makers are decals! See Ricardo you were right all along.
I don't mask the rosette, I just put several layers of super blonde shellac on it and then French polish with a more colored shellac. Then you don't need to go over the rosette much and it stays brighter.
I like some rosettes that have a full color shellac on them, but they are mre difficult to touch up later. Of course color matching on guitar finishes is always tough.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I knew it all along, rosettes by younger makers are decals!
Actually I sold some of my rosettes to a builder who was using such thin rosettes that he had to fill them with Crazy Glue to make them smooth rather than try and sand them.
But I think he liked my 1.5 to 2 mm saw cut rosettes a lot.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)
One of the reasons I have to be off this list for awhile is that Manuel sent me two guitars to fine-tune in the Blackshear motif. The spruce top had a few problems but this morning the tuning worked very well and I've got a great guitar to sell.......but sorry it's a classical.
Also, I have another guitar with a cedar top I will have to fine tune, but again, it's a classical.
And as soon as I get everything in order, with this and the 1968 building tutorial, I'll be back.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)
The top vibrates at a certain frequency or tone as I sing. It vibrates more with the key of G-F#-F right now. It should stay at this tuning when connected to the guitar, with only a slight potential for variance, which can be fine-tuned to its optimum tonal response if necessary.
I think a significant number of guitar makers are working with this ideal today, as there seems to be a renaissance of traditional methods from the older masters coming back into view.
And I can say this, if factories want to build higher quality instruments, then it is imperative that these older systems be considered as an option or additional approach for a quality build.. As it does not hurt to utilize something that can add to art.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)
Most of the dimensional vowel tone would be fine-tuned after the guitar has been played a few days.
I remember taking 12 years to finalize a voice in one of my Miguel Rodriguez style classical guitars. It is beautiful with the Church Door type Brazilian rosewood and cedar top.
It went for top dollar to a friend of mine in San Antonio.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
I was wondering...
How do measure your achievement on this one? You set yourself to build a modification of something so..
It kinda sounds like a "protection" in case you don't succeed at building a replica of this guitar but maybe you have other plans or intentional corrections for this model... if that's the case, how do you measure your success at it? ...and if it is meant to be a 1968 Conde with intentional corrections, why not just say that it's "a guitar you've built"?
Unless Iam missing something that is "proprietary" to that specific guitar, then I don't understand this.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
quote:
It kinda sounds like a "protection" in case you don't succeed at building a replica of this guitar
The point of this tutorial is to modify the guitar using a fan brace adjustment to see if it can be improved, nothing else.
This attempt is to improve articulation and bring the playing technique up to a modern style of play.
I'll know this when the guitar is finished, not until then. I've built this model several times before but I will incorporate the new technique to see if it improves the guitar.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Sr. Martins)
All previous builds of the Conde design, were sold,...... this is to experiment with a modification similar to the 2003 Reyes to see if there can be any improvement with fan brace shaping.
I've incorporated similar techniques to the Miguel Rodriguez style and found it improves the guitar to support the construction, without hurting the tone.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
I'm just about ready to continue building the Conde style modification. I'm bending the sides now and there's hope that this tutorial will be a positive experience.
My shop is becoming organized to the point that everything is getting more comfortable with building. I still have some concern about the top tuning being higher than the original F on the 4th string, so I may try and lower the key a little before I glue the top to the sides.
The way I do this is to take a little more wood off the fan braces, ever so slightly, on the bass side and leave the treble side alone, so that the treble projection will be evident, as well as having a certain stiffness.
I may have to thin out the harmonic bars just a little, and after the guitar is together and playing for a few days, I'll graduate the top a little more to adjust the Key tuning before doing fine-tuning with the fan braces.
RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
This is to show a little progression with the guitar being built before the 2 part lining laminate and top goes on. I use the Miguel Rodriguez style laminate for the top to try and improve the projection.
Printable Version
it's a classical. 
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