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A young healthy Camaron de la Isla in his prime and the great Ramon de Algeciras. Sung with great emotion. Ricardo (shameless name dropping here) is helping me with Taranta/Taranto on the guitar but unfortunately "no hablo español". One term of college Spanish 47 years ago doesn't cut it. I would greatly appreciate the lyrics in Spanish. Translation software can do the rest. If I could sing (and sometimes during the second bottle wine I think I can) this would be one of the pieces If not the Spanish lyrics how about the general story line. I just hope he is not singing about his shoes being too small or some other disappointing subject. I love this piece. I've got to think that a little understanding of cante has to help with playing. Thanks for any help.
Great job Escribano! Thank you. May I however, specify the two expressions "derrumbacion" and "guerra sin cuartel": cave-in (so the kid in Asturias is trying to dig out his father after a mining disaster...) war without cease (i. e. there's a continuous battle raging ...)
I agree with "derrumbacion" and the "cuartel" thing might have that intention, although in a literal sense I think it would mean "a war without barracks or headquarters".
Thank you Esribano and please thank your wife for me. Also thanks edguerin for some fine tuning. Wow. Very heavy. I could feel the pain and anguish without understanding the words. I have loved this piece for a very long time. I'm relieved the subject wasn't a trivial matter.
Ed is correct. "Sin cuartel" means "no holds barred".
I didn't say he was wrong. Scrutinizing the meaning of the words is often benefitial to understand a language as opposed to translating just the meaning of a whole expression.
My interpretation stays as I first stated, "without quarter" or "no quarter" i.e. no mercy. A little different to me from "ceaseless" or "no holds barred" but the idea is much the same.
"A victor gives no quarter when the victor shows no clemency or mercy and refuses to spare the life in return for the surrender"
"The term may originate from an order by the commander of a victorious army that they "will not quarter i.e. house)" captured enemy combatants" (hence the more literal meaning that Sr. Martins mentions)
You are right in as far as the RAE explains "guerra sin cuartel" as "guerra a muerte", however the Diccionario General de la Lengua Española Vox gives this definition: "Sin tregua o sin darle un momento de descanso al enemigo o adversario:ambos atletas mantuvieron hasta el final de la carrera una lucha sin cuartel." So I guess both translations are o.k. :)
IMO, American folks can get a better grasp of how the words/meanings/full expressions work when they see them in different contexts or with potential variable meanings.
I agree with everything you have except 'como una derrumbacion'. He actually sang 'ya que hubo una derrumbacion - alla en una mina de Asturias.' The first half is a story of a boy trying to dig his father out of a mine that collapsed.
P.S. I checked online and this is what I found:
Y que arañaba con las uñas un niño como un leon es que hubo una derrumbacion en una mina de Asturias su pare dentro queo
My interpretation stays as I first stated, "without quarter" or "no quarter" i.e. no mercy.
You are correct, Simon. "Una guerra sin cuartel" means exactly as you state: "A war without quarter" or "A war without mercy." That is, no mercy is shown. The phrase "A war without barracks or headquarters" makes no sense, either in Spanish or in English. And all other possibilities for "cuartel" miss the context in which the term is used here. One of the pitfalls of translating from Spanish (or any other language) into English is trying to apply a literal word-for-word definition to an entire phrase. More often than not, the phrase will not make much sense. Context is everything in translation and interpreting.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
He is mixing the letras of "Sonidos Negros" and "Se Pelean En Mi Mente".
Not easy for my Mexican wife, but with my street Andalu', we figured it out between us.
This is pretty accurate, I think.
quote:
Ay...
Con sus uñas
Hay un niño
Como un león
Arañaba con sus uñas
Como una derrumbación
En una mina de Asturias
Su padre dentro quedó ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay....
[ya Ramón?]
En mi mente
El orgullo y el coraje
Se pelean en mi mente
Una guerra sin cuartel ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay...
Donde no existe la muerte ay, ay, ay, ay, ay
Sólo existe una mujer ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay....
p.s. "Una guerra sin cuartel" means war "without quarter" or " war without mercy", and "derrumbación" is devastation, I think.
Just for non-Spanish speakers.
There is a child , as a lion, straching with his nails a landslide (he say something as "as a landslide" in Spanish*) in an Asturian mine ** His father was inside
[vamos ya Ramón..] = Let's go Ramón
pride and courage wrestle in my mind a fight without quarter (a battle to the death) where death does not exist, there is only a woman.
*In the spanish song grammar is not right. It is very usual in Camaron verses, he uses distorted verses (probably for oral learning??). Curiosly these no-sense verses of Camaron sound usually more poetic than originals.
** Asturias is a non-flamenco area that is quite far away from Andalucía, at the opposite ends, in the northern coast of Spain. It is usual in other palos references to Asturian issues (a long history), but strange in a Taranto.
"A war without headquarters" makes no sense? How come? I find it a pretty good metaphor, in fact I might use it.
It makes slightly more sense than "A war without barracks."
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
In order to do you justice, I will have a couple of beers this evening and give some serious thought to whether or not any Spanish speaking person has ever, in the history of the Spanish-speaking world, spoken the phrase "Una Guerra sin Cuartel" and meant "A war without Barracks or Headquarters." In fact, the local beer is so good in Samoa that I might contemplate the possibility over three or four beers. This might turn into a dissertation.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
AFAIK that exactly is the original meaning of "guerra sin cuartel"; i.e. a fierce war, without respite, leaving enemy and friend alike without time to set up quarters
Actually, the expression 'guerra sin cuartel' in Spanish is more close to those expressions that English speakers call idioms (as 'by the skin of my teeth'). The exact meaning is the metaphoric 'a battle to the death'. An uncontrolled conflict between two parts (in any context: sentimental, family, business, media, etc..).
I guess letras are like a bag of falsetas, to be mixed up and re-used as the fancy takes one.
It is, exactly.
But, if the guitar is complicate, 'el cante' is a titanic task and it depends on genetic skill much more than guitar (technique, timbre, capacity of your lungs, dramatic expression ... ) . If the guitarist fail in the middle of a falseta he could go ahead. But If the cantaor has a mistake in his breath pattern, he become deflated and he can not continue properly.
Sorry. I am not english speaker and ...did I said something inconvenient? I want to mean that, for example, a long breating in martinete requires good physical conditions and big lungs. And lung capacity are not the same for all the people and does not depends only on training. It is like in professional sportmen.
It is also true with timbre. To get a 'Natural' voice does not depends on your training. It is your kind voice. A 'rounded' voice or an 'afilla' voice is much better for siguirillas than falsete voice or a 'laina' voice. Camaron, for example had a very, very special voice and special musical skills. Or, for example, Performing a matinete as Agujetas de Jerez is almost impossible for most of the people.
My interpretation stays as I first stated, "without quarter" or "no quarter" i.e. no mercy. A little different to me from "ceaseless" or "no holds barred" but the idea is much the same.
"A victor gives no quarter when the victor shows no clemency or mercy and refuses to spare the life in return for the surrender"
"The term may originate from an order by the commander of a victorious army that they "will not quarter i.e. house)" captured enemy combatants" (hence the more literal meaning that Sr. Martins mentions)
While the end result is the same, and the expression "without quarter" has been used for centuries to mean "without clemency or mercy", as you explained, I disagree with the tentative etymology speculated by the author of the cited wikipedia article.
This proverbial expression has nothing to do with “housing” the prisoners.
The etymology of the expression is rooted in the ancient (late Roman empire) military rules of dueling. In a duel, one party had the option, at any time before or during the duel, to withdraw by paying to his adversary a sum of money, equal to “one quarter” (1/4) of the defeated soldier’s salary.
The option was used when one was about to be killed by the victor, and would exclaim, “quarter” to ask that his life be spared.
Hence, the proverbial expression “to fight without quarter”, means fight “without sparing anyone’s life”.
From Rob Roy: At the Duel. "Referee: You are here on a matter of honor. I am here to see that you settle it honorably. There will be no back-stabbing, you will not throw your blades, nor will you use weapons other than those agreed. If quarter should be asked... Robert Roy MacGregor: No quarter will be asked. Archibald Cunningham: Or given."
________ The word “quarter” has another usage among the most characteristic military expressions. In the navy, “Beat to Quarters”, is used to call the crew to prepare for battle. Also in this instance the word “quarter” maintains its original numerical root, but here it refers to the alerting rhythm of the drum, which is in “Four”.
In the navy, “Beat to Quarters”, is used to call the crew to prepare for battle. Also in this instance the word “quarter” maintains its original numerical root, but here it refers to the alerting rhythm of the drum, which is in “Four”.
In the US Navy "General Quarters!" is the same as the British "Action Stations!" - I prefer "Action Stations!"
"Beat to Quarters" was also used in the British Navy in Nelson's time but I don't recall it referring to the beat of the drum (quarter notes, perhaps?), I thought it was a call to one's quarters i.e. one's place.
Do you have a reference? I'm just not with you on this four thing quite yet
Another thing that strikes me is that it makes more sense to ask to be taken prisoner i.e. to be quartered, than to ask to pay a fee, which would be offered, not asked. What I mean is that quarter is given by the victor not the defeated.
Being I'm a US Navy Veteran myself, I know it as "General Quarters, General Quarters, all Hands Man your Battle Stations" ... So it's sort of it's own thing.
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