Romanillos-like bracing in a flamenca

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Romanillos-like bracing in a flamenca - what do you think?

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MiSz

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

Romanillos-like bracing in a flamenc...

Hi Folks,

At the moment I'm working on my 3rd flamenca. The 1st was a Reyes copy, the 2nd a Barbero. Now I would like to do something new.

About my thaughts:

Romanillos has a different way of bracing a guitar, with really high but narrow braces. Therefore you can save a little bit of weight, and because of the stiff bracing you could work the top really close to its limit.

I was thinking about an 'experimental' bracing, which would be as follows:
Based on the really parallel 7-fan Romanillos bracing with the long taper, beginning at the bridge (One of the bracings featured in the courtnall book) and 2 short closing struts, i would do a few changes: No open harmonic bars, really light neck and heel, and of course flamenco neck angle and bridge.

Do you think this could work in a flamenco guitar or would it end in a mess?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2014 20:03:58

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

I think you can make most any bracing system work because whatever you do with the braces you can balance out with what you do with the top. Please let us know how this works out if you do it--preferably with a video or audio recording.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2014 23:52:26

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

Why not do the Reyes or Barbero again?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2014 1:01:00

MiSz

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to estebanana)

Why not a Reyes or Barba again?
This question is truely entitled.
On the one hand its maybe the best to repeat a design and get the most out of it. On the other hand I'm just soo curious about exploring new construction methods and sounds ;)

What i observed in my previous builds:
-The Reyes had a great range of overtones/harmonics but the percussiveness had suffered as a result.
-The Barbero was incredibly percussive and has this metallic trebles. To me a combination of both would be the sound i'm looking for.

Ethan, it is great that you joined this thread, i wanted to ask you something about your bracing system you worte about on your website. I mean the arcangel bracing. On the picture it seems to have a really high and rather narrow bracing... am i right? This would encourage me a little bit to try this way - high bracing under the bridge with a lot of taper towards the end.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2014 7:07:01

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

I have built flamenco cross-overs with Romanillos bracing (Bream guitar)

Its not my favorite for flamenco. You can make it rasp and sound flamenco, but the pulsation is stiff and nervous and the top is a bit overgeared and overtight.
Its a bracing system that puts a lot of control on the soundboard and its very stiff. More or less the oposite of what I consider good flamenco practice.

Its a great classical bracing if you want a small guitar with a strong projection and volume. The trebles are very beautiful and full of color. The basses are not very round and deep but they are tight, projects a lot and have a good sustain. It requires a player with a strong and precise right hand. But then it also really sings and it never gets muddy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2014 7:13:17

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

My understanding of what you are doing is stopping short of an actual fine tuning procedure to establish the proper tone and playability of each instrument you are building.

You are certainly free to experiment but if you are trying to get to the point of selling guitars for a profit, then I would suggest you stay with a proven flamenco pattern and work with it until you get the guitar completed in its over all finished state.

May I quote Michael Cone: "We need the ability to identify and modify specific areas of interest in order to improve overall response. Every instrument can benefit from a process of fine-tuning after completion to identify and optimize any irregularities. This process is best undertaken after the instrument is broken in."

And may I add that both the Barbero and Reyes guitars are fully capable when built right.

I have built about 5 Romanillos styled classicals and they are not for flamenco, compared to the previous two mentioned.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2014 18:33:03

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

<snip>
the pulsation is stiff and nervous and the top is a bit overgeared and overtight.
Its a bracing system that puts a lot of control on the soundboard and its very stiff. More or less the oposite of what I consider good flamenco practice.

Its a great classical bracing if you want a small guitar with a strong projection and volume. The trebles are very beautiful and full of color. The basses are not very round and deep but they are tight, projects a lot and have a good sustain. It requires a player with a strong and precise right hand. But then it also really sings and it never gets muddy.

This is a very good description of my spruce/Indian '73 Romanillos. I find right hand precision more important than strength on the Romanillos, but I am more likely to overpower a classical guitar than to underpower it.

I play my '06 spruce/Brazilian Abel Garcia more often. It has a slightly softer pulsation and a sweeter tone. The Romanillos is a great guitar, though. I really enjoy it when I play it. There's a good chance I would prefer it if I were playing in a concert size room.

Garcia has studied with Romanillos, and I told how much I liked my '73 Romanillos when I ordered the '06 guitar. Garcia's guitar is notably different from the Romanillos, though similar in plantilla.

I haven't played a later Romanillos enough to really get to know it.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2014 18:45:01

MiSz

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Hey guys,

Thanks a lot for the great answers.
Just to make things clear: I'm working as a physician. I'm building guitars just because i love to do it.
In my opinion I am right now searching for a tone that i have in mind.
So right now i got to a point where i dont know what to do :)
Another thaught was to develop something based on the barbero plantilla/bracing to get a little bit more harmonics.
Any ideas how to do this?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2014 19:59:02

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

quote:

What i observed in my previous builds:
-The Reyes had a great range of overtones/harmonics but the percussiveness had suffered as a result.
-The Barbero was incredibly percussive and has this metallic trebles. To me a combination of both would be the sound i'm looking for.

You can make either of these bracing plans do what you explain. Did you build one stiffer than the other?

Since you only have a sample of one of each model, if made another one of either model it would give you more information to compare to the same brace pattern. Then the question of who to get more harmonics would begin to answer itself.

But for more harmonic presence, I think stiffening and raising the lower horizontal brace under the sound hole helps. Stopping the top at that juncture and then gluing in tall hefty coupling blocks between the brace and the ribs helps bring out high partial support under the fundamental. Or at least is has for me. But the caveat is a little bit overtones go a long way.

The blocks coupling the ribs to horizontal bar shown on the 51 Barbero plan are fairly tall and are the shape I'm speaking of, make them a bit beefier and make the bar taller and slightly thinner. I think a tall, thin horizontal bar under the sound hole does have some bearing on harmonic support. And how a tall stiff brace is connected to the ribs. You see a lot of flamenco guitars, on average, that have lower and wider bars under the sound hole and with less coupling to the ribs. These guitars seem to me to accentuate less harmonic production in general.

Maybe just me, but since Romanillos focused on a different kind of sound for most of his building career he's about the last person I think of when I think flamenco sound. But if you made a basic Torres 'kite' design and made the top the right thickness and used a light bridge and set up the neck angle for flamenco you would more or less get a flamenco guitar. I've done it. If you take to the two outboard fan braces off the Torres pattern and spread them a little where lay next to the lower horizontal bar you arrive at a Santos/Barbero five fan pattern basically.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2014 1:57:06

Joan Maher

Posts: 213
Joined: Dec. 3 2013

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

This is a Classical Bracing system not Flamenco I have tried it and will give you a different sounds than Santos type bracing... But if you fancy it have a go!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2014 8:21:31

MiSz

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2014 11:18:51

MiSz

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

Sorry for the previous post - had problems with the youtube embedding

I like your ideas about the harmonic bar a lot. Perhaps i should stay with the Barbero and modify it a little bit.

Regarding the stiffness: Yes, the Barbero is stiffer, the top i used was a rather heavy and really stiff piece of haselfichte (dont know how it is called in english)

I made a video of the Barbero, so perhaps you guys could tell me a little bit about what you think

http://youtu.be/zLR7n0aX0Sg

Regarding the joint between the lower harmonic bar and the ribs. I only glued another tenellone above it and that was it - maybe too little connection?
By the way i built after the Courtnall plan without the bridge patch. The lower harmonic bar was angled and about 12 mm tall and 8 mm wide.

What change might i expect adding a bridge patch to the design?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2014 11:21:54

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

quote:

Regarding the joint between the lower harmonic bar and the ribs. I only glued another tenellone above it and that was it - maybe too little connection?

Yes yes, that is good for a flamenco approach to that brace. But you can also really tie it to the ribs.

There was a great builder in California named Warren White, he made a few guitars that I was able to play that had a minimal horizontal bar about 3" long, but it was held up by a real flying buttress of braces attached to the ribs at the back lining. Those were the most overtoney guitars I have ever heard. I think it has something to do with the string coupling of the ribs/back with the top.

I could make diagram. Not that I advocate this design, but it was so radical it seemed to prove a point about overtone support.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2014 13:44:31

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

The guitar sounds too stiff, perhaps due to the top being too thick.

It's best to follow a plan of the guitar to its detailed specifications, then work from there to fine tune it better.

I'd like to say at this point that there is a tendency for novice guitar builders to make unnecessary adjustments instead of waiting to gain the skill required to make their instruments work like the old masters.

There is always impatience to change something that doesn't necessarily need to be changed. Sometimes this impatience can lead us down a blind alley and cause a lot of wasted time by our having to turn around and re-do the modification.

This is one of the reasons I stress the importance of working with a great guitar design. It will inevitably lead us toward a fine instrument if we practice patience.

And trying to put different guitar designs together doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2014 15:54:10

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

There was a great builder in California named Warren White

Warren White used a rose rosette designed by Graydon Buss of San Antonio many years ago. "Buzz" replaced a guitar top for me that had this rosette in it.

Graydon was a research physicist and innovator of tiny intricate details for guitars. He was actually on the cusp of being a great builder when a brain tumor took his life.

He is greatly missed.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2014 16:05:54

MiSz

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

The guitar sounds too stiff, perhaps due to the top being too thick.

I'm not shure about that (It was recorded with an iPad mic...). You are right, the top is rather thick (something about 2.2 mm).
I own a Jose Lopez Bellido, it is a lot stiffer than my 'Barbero' with a higher top pitch. Anyway it's a great guitar.

I decided to work the top of my Barbero a little bit thicker because the bracing seemed 'light' to me in comparison to the Reyes bracing.
I left the top dead flat, the harmonic bars as well.

I think you convinced me to repeat the Barbero design and try to get the best out of it.
Would you recommend to try a little bit of doming behind the bridge?
Also I'm not sure about the basses when the top is too thick, right now the guitar sounds to me equally balanced between bass and trebles (I know, in the video it does not sound like that...)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2014 16:36:28

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

I have nothing to say about the guitar, bracings or whatever but I would like to suggest that no conclusions should be made based on the audio from that video.

To me it sounds like lots of frequencies have been lost.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2014 16:56:48

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

quote:

I'm not sure about that (It was recorded with an iPad mic...). You are right, the top is rather thick (something about 2.2 mm).

I build my Barbero top designs with 1.9 to 2 MM thick and I have built both flat tops and slightly domed tops, and the flat tops work much better for me.

What happens with the flat tops, or any top, is to fine tune to finish off the tone of the guitar, but some times you can hit the tone perfectly with no fine tuning.

I've built many successful designs of Spanish builders with no fine tuning but the more I build, the more I realize that there is a step of further perfection, if I can find it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2014 18:16:59

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

quote:

I think you convinced me to repeat the Barbero design and try to get the best out of it.

That sounds good. Last year I built four exact mm for mm copies of the 51 Barbero from the plan R.E. Brune drew. They are all good, but all a little different. A year before that I built the Barbero and Reyes at the same time and they were really different but not radically different. The Reyes was more meaty.

You can't go wrong by studying one proven design several times. I've always had less success when blending ideas or doing far out experiments. You learn things, but at the expense of not ending up with a fully sell-able guitar.

There's nothing new under the sun in flamenco building, it's all in selecting a great piece of top wood and then building enough of the same model to know how to thin it and brace it to get it to speak.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2014 1:11:12

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

Yes, my fan braces are higher than they are wide. They start out about 3/16" wide and 1/4" tall and then I carve their sides after gluing them on so they are sort of parabolic.

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www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2014 3:32:22

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
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From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Maybe just me, but since Romanillos focused on a different kind of sound for most of his building career he's about the last person I think of when I think flamenco sound.

Me too.

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www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2014 3:34:25

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

For pulgar, picado and arpeggios played with flamenco right hand, my '73 Romanillos has a surprisingly good flamenco sound--to my ear at least. Rasgueados aren't so good. They lack the crisp percussiveness of my blancas. I had the same impression of Mario Escudero's ABC recording played on a Hermann Hauser I, despite his "no flamenco guitars or classical guitars, only good guitars and bad guitars" quote.

Romanillos says he was considerably influenced by working on a Hauser owned by Julian Bream. My Romanillos was modeled on a 1950 Hermann Hauser I, according to Richard Brune's appraisal.

Bream's famous '73 Romanillos was a trial run for duplicating a 1930 Hauser that belonged to Sergio Abreu. Bream's guitar has open harmonic bars, and more doming to the top than previous instruments. This is written up in the transcription of Kevin Aram's 1990 talk to the Guild of American Luthiers convention, published in the September, 1991 edition of "American Lutherie." The writeup is included one of the Guild of American Luthiers' "Big Red Books."

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2014 20:28:02

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

For me its so weird to read these posts. We have had many of them and they always end up with a picture that profiles the Reyes or the 51 Barbero plan as the only way to go.

My suggestion is that you dont build any of these designs. They are both awkward designs very different from the huge majority of what the socalled "old masters" have made. The Reyes because of its shaping of the braces and the Barbero because it leaves an enormous amout of uncontrolled soundboard area.
Both builders have made other designs and from what I know, most Barebero guitars had a totally different design. He started using bridge straps and so on. (There´s an article about it out there in cyberspace) And the Reyes guitars that I have seen did NOT have the bracing of the guitar that T. Blackshear copies and has blown out of dimension.
Here, in the country of the "old masters" very few guitars have been built with these two designs.

I would suggest that you study bracing systems and make your own. There´s basically no secrets in bracing systems as long as you stay within well proven parameters. In the end its about choosing what is right for you and your way of balancing out a guitar.

If you have to use a plan, my advice is the Santos Hernandez plan, which is a lot more "normal" and less "weird" than the 51Barbero and the Reyes plans.
As a starting point it will give you a much more balanced point of view from where you can go on.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2014 7:43:03

Tom Blackshear

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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

For me its so weird to read these posts. We have had many of them and they always end up with a picture that profiles the Reyes or the 51 Barbero plan as the only way to go.

It could be that these two master builders are the typical guitars that people have grown accustomed to playing and holding in high regard. They don't get mentioned unless they are recognized as quality instruments. Their reputation has to come from somewhere.

On the other hand, Conde has gained a certain reputation for being a serviceable instrument with lower prices compared to the Reyes and Barbero.

I have build most of the master guitars during the 53 years of my career and I can say that Reyes and Barbero are good flamenco guitars worth considering. And any novice who has access to their plans should try and accomplish their ultimate performance quality before moving on to another pattern.

Most young builders should learn from the masters before attempting their own designs. And most players don't care what design is used as long as its successful. So use a proven design and learn from it.

And as for the Santos style, it has multiple designs to build with and is quite capable of producing bell like quality but the point here is that most builders can't produce the same tone that Santos produced.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2014 14:04:01

Morante

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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Why have you never tried to copy a Gerundino? He is in every way equal or better than Reyes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2014 16:29:10

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Why have you never tried to copy a Gerundino? He is in every way equal or better than Reyes.

I have built 5 copies of the 1969 Gerundino that Paco Del Gastor used to own, and now belongs to a friend of mine in Texas. It's a fine guitar but was restored by a repairman in California and turned out to be of lessor quality after the restoration. I have the original plan I took off the original guitar, before it was restored.

I built a copy for a friend of mine, which later was a sold to Dan Zeff guitars and then sold to a studio guitarist who worked for a popular singer and recording artist. And like I said....I have built copies of most of the flamenco masters, including some classicals...one being a 1917 Santos that Robert Guthrie recorded with for about 8 years.

But I'm convinced that the more modern traditional flamencos are better for modern players, as far as articulation and power goes. And the Reyes style I build is perfect for certain adjustments to fit modern hands.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2014 17:07:06

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I have built 5 copies of the 1969 Gerundino that Paco Del Gastor used to own, and now belongs to a friend of mine in Texas. It's a fine guitar but was restored by a repairman in California and turned out to be of lessor quality after the restoration. I have the original plan I took off the original guitar, before it was restored.

Is that the one he plays for fernanda in the flamenco movie?

Nobody has done an exact copy of PDL's conde???? strange.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2014 0:59:02

Tom Blackshear

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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Ricardo)

Couldn't say but it was dated 1969. And Raymond's '68 Conde is secured as a plan in my shop since he sold it to a friend of mine in 1969 at the Hemisfair in San Antonio.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2014 3:21:55

estebanana

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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to MiSz)

It might be worth noting that Santos' and Barbero's fan designs are often are not that far apart from each other. And since Barbero finished some of Santos' guitars we can assume he had a look at the fan braces.

Here is a photo of a Santos guitar with the back off. It is a 1920 Santos. From the photo you can see enough of the fan braces to understand the cut off bars are far inboard from the sides and at a very steep angle. And the fans are basically under the bridge a more or less parallel.

I made a pencil tracing over the photo to show where they are.

Compare it to the 1951 Barbero, they are extremely similar.

A judgement a call of what a vast amount of uncontrolled soundboard vs. the results inherent in these two really fine sounding guitars seems odd. I think Santos in general made many guitars that resembled this bracing or something very close. He built a lot of guitars, and unless you have seen inside the majority of them it's kind of difficult to categorically claim what is an anomaly and what is typical. I honestly can't because I have only seen four Santos guitars.

These designs work, one has to start somewhere and I'd rather say begin with a plan and then change to your own style or your own permutation on this very ubiquitous design. It's kind of plucking out cat whiskers instead of petting the whole furry cat to keep mulling over who is more authentic based on where you live. The world is now an information ghetto and everyone knows that you can go with a plan or you go with your own variation on a fan bracing theme. Or get good information about Spanish guitars from a few Yankee and English experts, who frankly have seen inside more Santos or Torres guitars than anyone. There are probably less than a dozen humans on the planet right now who have seen inside a large enough cross section of Torres, Barbero and Santos guitars to really authenticate them and to say what is typical a what is not.We have a great Torres book, but as of yet we have no authoritative book on Santos or Barbero that shows the entire output of either maker.

Plans are important historical documents as well. So it may seen crazy to draw them and reproduce them exactly, but this affords the new, and old builder, a chance to literally apprentice in that guitar makers style. And this training is an invaluable step in teaching oneself, whether you continue in that fan pattern or not.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (3)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2014 6:41:47

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Romanillos-like bracing in a fla... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

It could be that these two master builders are the typical guitars that people have grown accustomed to playing and holding in high regard. They don't get mentioned unless they are recognized as quality instruments. Their reputation has to come from somewhere.

This is a typical Tom Blackshear reply based on what is going on in your little chicken yard. Basically all what you write is based on this chicken yard.

There is a world outside your chicken yard. You are very fond of the masters. They were all from Spain.
Here, in Spain, what you just wrote is NOT correct. On the contrary. The majority of flamenco guitars are not made with Reyes or Barbero 51 bracing systems.
Maybe there is a reason? The majority of good flamenco players live in Spain and not somewhere else.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2014 7:27:08