Flamenco Math

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Flamenco Math

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keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

Flamenco Math

Interesting Kindle book, Universal Flamenco, by Irene Rimer. She spends some time on the mathematics of flamenco and on Pythagoras' work that she believes is relevant to flamenco. It costs about $4 for the Kindle Version and $6 for the paper version.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2014 12:24:21

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to keith)

Can you briefly describe what she means by the "mathematics of flamenco" (the count in compas, or what?), and how does she specifically relate Pythagoras' work to flamenco? Is she suggesting that the Pythagorean Theorem (the relationship of the three sides of a right triangle in euclidean geometry, i.e., the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides) has something to do with flamenco?

Music has always been compared to mathematics, but how does she specifically relate mathematics to flamenco?

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2014 14:21:12

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to BarkellWH)

the book is not earth shaking but a fun read. here is a link.

http://www.amazon.com/Universal-FLAMENCO-Irene-Rimer-ebook/dp/B00CHXC9XE/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1410453664&sr=1-1&keywords=universal+flamenco

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2014 16:40:34

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to keith)

quote:

the book is not earth shaking but a fun read. here is a link.

The link is to Amazon.com flogging the book. There is no real description of how she relates mathematics (or Pythagoras) to flamenco, which is why I was hoping you might provide a brief explanation. I probably will not order the book, as the author's biography describes her as a "Messianic mystic," which, whatever that means, renders her somewhat suspect as an authority in my book.

Thanks anyway.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2014 17:03:43

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to keith)

She certainly has an, ahem, interesting CV. Somehow I am thinking of Charo.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2014 18:28:41

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to BarkellWH)

Maybe the Pythagorean scale, where the diatonic scale is constructed via simple ratios of integers?

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/pythagorean.html

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2014 19:33:00

timoteo

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

The link is to Amazon.com flogging the book. There is no real description of how she relates mathematics (or Pythagoras) to flamenco,

If you go to the Amazon page then click on the image where it says "Look Inside" you can read a section of the book - more than enough in this case to see her treatment of the subject matter.

Or you can download the same sample in Kindle form.

After reading the sample, I'm not inclined to waste time discussing the book or spend money to buy it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2014 19:47:10

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to timoteo)

quote:

After reading the sample, I'm not inclined to waste time discussing the book or spend money to buy it.

Ditto for me. Didn't even have to read the sample. (Although since Keith was flogging her book in this thread, I thought he could briefly describe her idea. Maybe it didn't make sense to him either.) That she is a self-described "Messianic mystic" was enough for me. I seriously doubt she could convincingly relate Pythagorean theory or scale to flamenco. Perhaps she ingested too many peyote buttons and has fooled her followers, like Carlos Castaneda did with "The Teachings of Don Juan," his fraudulent Yaqui Indian "shaman," in the sixties.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2014 20:13:22

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to keith)

Apropos...

I'm sure guitarbudda can sort this all out for us.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2014 21:23:28

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to aeolus)

Sorry but my interest in the book on this thread ended with it's title.

I did recommend this one on another thread.

http://daniellevitin.com/publicpage/books/this-is-your-brain-on-music/

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2014 22:03:21

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

I seriously doubt she could convincingly relate Pythagorean theory or scale to flamenco. Perhaps she ingested too many peyote buttons and has fooled her followers, like Carlos Castaneda did with "The Teachings of Don Juan," his fraudulent Yaqui Indian "shaman," in the sixties.

Don't forget Pythagoras WAS a mystic, so much so that he and his followers suppressed their knowledge of the dodecahedron and the square root of 2 (irrational numbers) from the public. Not very scientific. I can totally see why this mystic lady is probably making her case.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2014 16:27:05

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Don't forget Pythagoras WAS a mystic, so much so that he and his followers suppressed their knowledge of the dodecahedron and the square root of 2 (irrational numbers) from the public. Not very scientific. I can totally see why this mystic lady is probably making her case.

Pythagoras was a mystic who held both rational and irrational ideas. He combined mathematics and theology and founded his own religion, the main tenet of which (among others) was the sinfulness of eating beans. He constantly urged his followers to abstain from eating beans. I can see where the lady (a self-described "mystic") who wrote the book under consideration takes her cue from Pythagoras.

Nevertheless, without having read the book, I would hazard a guess that no serious mathematician who understands flamenco would buy into her argument of the relationship between the two. (I wonder if she eats beans while engaging in aromatherapy?!)

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2014 17:21:02

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

Don't forget Pythagoras WAS a mystic, so much so that he and his followers suppressed their knowledge of the dodecahedron and the square root of 2 (irrational numbers) from the public. Not very scientific. I can totally see why this mystic lady is probably making her case.

Nevertheless, without having read the book, I would hazard a guess that no serious mathematician who understands flamenco would buy into her argument of the relationship between the two.

Bill

Here is my recommendation from another thread.

'Whereas Levitin lacks warmth and poetry of Sacks prose he actually takes a fair stab at explaining empirically why western music is easier for a child to understand regardless of cultural background and he backs it up with some citations of research to measure babies response to varying material.'

Basically the maths is simpler for the emerging brain when the pythagorean relationships of the lower end of the harmonic series are stressed as is the case with major scales. Which is what I think RJ was getting at.

In terms of Arithmetic, and not maths flamenco has the advantage of using twelve as a basic grouping.

And here the advantage is the fact that at all of the integers until you get to seven divide twelve easily making polyhythms possible.

But this is true of lots of musics such as a lot of African music and even Swing Time which is really 12/8.

4/4 with its stress on binary (either eight or sixteen subdivisions to the bar) is less flexible in this respect although it contains the illusion of polyrhythms often with the combination of groups of twos and threes.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2014 17:34:00

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to guitarbuddha)

OOPS !!

I got a bit carried away there about twelve. Five doesn't actually go into twelve.

But delving into numerology awhile five plus seven (two primes conventionally considered aukward in western music) are the basis for the harmonic rhythm of Seguiria.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2014 18:47:29

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to guitarbuddha)

David,

I don't question the relationship of mathematics (and, in some cases, Pythagoras) to music. The relationship between mathematics and music (including flamenco) has always been known.

My skepticism of the author of this book (admittedly based only on Keith's description) is that she seems to attempt to make the case for a special relationship between Pythagoras and flamenco, one that I suspect she would be hard pressed to sustain if pushed to the wall. Being a self-described "Messianic mystic," perhaps she over-identifies with Pythagoras.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2014 18:49:46

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to BarkellWH)

Hi Bill.

I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought I was schooling you. But since you are clearly interested and I enjoyed the Levitin book (light but clear and amiable) I am proceeding with my recommendation in my usual hamfisted way.

And of course the mathematical basis of both harmony and rhythm and the pitfalls of an over literal attachment to them may be something that is new and even interesting to other readers here.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2014 18:55:14

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Flamenco Math (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Hi Bill. I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought I was schooling you.

Not at all, David. Your comments and take on things are always interesting and welcome.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2014 19:05:07