Flamenco Math (Full Version)

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keith -> Flamenco Math (Sep. 11 2014 12:24:21)

Interesting Kindle book, Universal Flamenco, by Irene Rimer. She spends some time on the mathematics of flamenco and on Pythagoras' work that she believes is relevant to flamenco. It costs about $4 for the Kindle Version and $6 for the paper version.



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 11 2014 14:21:12)

Can you briefly describe what she means by the "mathematics of flamenco" (the count in compas, or what?), and how does she specifically relate Pythagoras' work to flamenco? Is she suggesting that the Pythagorean Theorem (the relationship of the three sides of a right triangle in euclidean geometry, i.e., the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides) has something to do with flamenco?

Music has always been compared to mathematics, but how does she specifically relate mathematics to flamenco?

Bill



keith -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 11 2014 16:40:34)

the book is not earth shaking but a fun read. here is a link.

http://www.amazon.com/Universal-FLAMENCO-Irene-Rimer-ebook/dp/B00CHXC9XE/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1410453664&sr=1-1&keywords=universal+flamenco



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 11 2014 17:03:43)

quote:

the book is not earth shaking but a fun read. here is a link.


The link is to Amazon.com flogging the book. There is no real description of how she relates mathematics (or Pythagoras) to flamenco, which is why I was hoping you might provide a brief explanation. I probably will not order the book, as the author's biography describes her as a "Messianic mystic," which, whatever that means, renders her somewhat suspect as an authority in my book.

Thanks anyway.

Bill



aeolus -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 11 2014 18:28:41)

She certainly has an, ahem, interesting CV. Somehow I am thinking of Charo.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 11 2014 19:33:00)

Maybe the Pythagorean scale, where the diatonic scale is constructed via simple ratios of integers?

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/pythagorean.html

RNJ



timoteo -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 11 2014 19:47:10)

quote:

The link is to Amazon.com flogging the book. There is no real description of how she relates mathematics (or Pythagoras) to flamenco,


If you go to the Amazon page then click on the image where it says "Look Inside" you can read a section of the book - more than enough in this case to see her treatment of the subject matter.

Or you can download the same sample in Kindle form.

After reading the sample, I'm not inclined to waste time discussing the book or spend money to buy it.



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 11 2014 20:13:22)

quote:

After reading the sample, I'm not inclined to waste time discussing the book or spend money to buy it.


Ditto for me. Didn't even have to read the sample. (Although since Keith was flogging her book in this thread, I thought he could briefly describe her idea. Maybe it didn't make sense to him either.) That she is a self-described "Messianic mystic" was enough for me. I seriously doubt she could convincingly relate Pythagorean theory or scale to flamenco. Perhaps she ingested too many peyote buttons and has fooled her followers, like Carlos Castaneda did with "The Teachings of Don Juan," his fraudulent Yaqui Indian "shaman," in the sixties.

Bill



aeolus -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 11 2014 21:23:28)

Apropos...



I'm sure guitarbudda can sort this all out for us.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 11 2014 22:03:21)

Sorry but my interest in the book on this thread ended with it's title.

I did recommend this one on another thread.

http://daniellevitin.com/publicpage/books/this-is-your-brain-on-music/

D.



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 12 2014 16:27:05)

quote:

I seriously doubt she could convincingly relate Pythagorean theory or scale to flamenco. Perhaps she ingested too many peyote buttons and has fooled her followers, like Carlos Castaneda did with "The Teachings of Don Juan," his fraudulent Yaqui Indian "shaman," in the sixties.


Don't forget Pythagoras WAS a mystic, so much so that he and his followers suppressed their knowledge of the dodecahedron and the square root of 2 (irrational numbers) from the public. Not very scientific. I can totally see why this mystic lady is probably making her case.



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 12 2014 17:21:02)

quote:

Don't forget Pythagoras WAS a mystic, so much so that he and his followers suppressed their knowledge of the dodecahedron and the square root of 2 (irrational numbers) from the public. Not very scientific. I can totally see why this mystic lady is probably making her case.


Pythagoras was a mystic who held both rational and irrational ideas. He combined mathematics and theology and founded his own religion, the main tenet of which (among others) was the sinfulness of eating beans. He constantly urged his followers to abstain from eating beans. I can see where the lady (a self-described "mystic") who wrote the book under consideration takes her cue from Pythagoras.

Nevertheless, without having read the book, I would hazard a guess that no serious mathematician who understands flamenco would buy into her argument of the relationship between the two. (I wonder if she eats beans while engaging in aromatherapy?!)

Bill



guitarbuddha -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 12 2014 17:34:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

Don't forget Pythagoras WAS a mystic, so much so that he and his followers suppressed their knowledge of the dodecahedron and the square root of 2 (irrational numbers) from the public. Not very scientific. I can totally see why this mystic lady is probably making her case.




Nevertheless, without having read the book, I would hazard a guess that no serious mathematician who understands flamenco would buy into her argument of the relationship between the two.

Bill


Here is my recommendation from another thread.

'Whereas Levitin lacks warmth and poetry of Sacks prose he actually takes a fair stab at explaining empirically why western music is easier for a child to understand regardless of cultural background and he backs it up with some citations of research to measure babies response to varying material.'


Basically the maths is simpler for the emerging brain when the pythagorean relationships of the lower end of the harmonic series are stressed as is the case with major scales. Which is what I think RJ was getting at.

In terms of Arithmetic, and not maths flamenco has the advantage of using twelve as a basic grouping.

And here the advantage is the fact that at all of the integers until you get to seven divide twelve easily making polyhythms possible.

But this is true of lots of musics such as a lot of African music and even Swing Time which is really 12/8.

4/4 with its stress on binary (either eight or sixteen subdivisions to the bar) is less flexible in this respect although it contains the illusion of polyrhythms often with the combination of groups of twos and threes.

D.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 12 2014 18:47:29)

OOPS !!

I got a bit carried away there about twelve. Five doesn't actually go into twelve.

But delving into numerology awhile five plus seven (two primes conventionally considered aukward in western music) are the basis for the harmonic rhythm of Seguiria.

D.



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 12 2014 18:49:46)

David,

I don't question the relationship of mathematics (and, in some cases, Pythagoras) to music. The relationship between mathematics and music (including flamenco) has always been known.

My skepticism of the author of this book (admittedly based only on Keith's description) is that she seems to attempt to make the case for a special relationship between Pythagoras and flamenco, one that I suspect she would be hard pressed to sustain if pushed to the wall. Being a self-described "Messianic mystic," perhaps she over-identifies with Pythagoras.

Bill



guitarbuddha -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 12 2014 18:55:14)

Hi Bill.

I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought I was schooling you. But since you are clearly interested and I enjoyed the Levitin book (light but clear and amiable) I am proceeding with my recommendation in my usual hamfisted way.

And of course the mathematical basis of both harmony and rhythm and the pitfalls of an over literal attachment to them may be something that is new and even interesting to other readers here.

D.



BarkellWH -> RE: Flamenco Math (Sep. 12 2014 19:05:07)

quote:

Hi Bill. I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought I was schooling you.


Not at all, David. Your comments and take on things are always interesting and welcome.

Bill



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