Ivory Advisory Information- Post here

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estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

Ivory Advisory Information- Post here

Here is a document from the U.S. Whitehouse outlining the new ivory policies.

There are a lot of problems with these policies from the standpoint of someone who owns old instruments or wants to travel with them or sell them. If you are planning to travel with or sell an instrument with ivory parts and you want it to enter or leave the US it might be a good idea to review this information.
The reasons to post these notices is to raise awareness. The owners of instruments with ivory parts should know this policy. One to keep safe the instruments they own; and to write letters and make phone calls to congress to change this draconian policy or rewrite it to make it favorable for those who own old instruments.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/02/11/fact-sheet-national-strategy-combating-wildlife-trafficking-commercial-b

Here's an article by George Gruhn with commentary on how this effects those of us in the business. I have attached it as jpg.

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Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 16 2014 3:35:29

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to estebanana)

a few articles on the impact of some industries. there is some good info in the violin forum about traveling and such--some of the same rules apply to d. nigra.

stephen, i believe the tennessean dot com article is, for the most part, the one you posted in jpeg form. gruhn is interviewed in the tenn. dot com article.

what is so bizarre is that even though one has to prove a 101 year old ivory dot on a bow is legit one can still hunt up to two elephants per year. go figure.

http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/knifeworld/IvoryBanKnifeWorldApr2014.pdf

http://www.tennessean.com/story/money/industries/music/2014/04/18/federal-ivory-ban-gruhn-guitars-nashville/7889167/

http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=25377

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 16 2014 18:18:06

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to estebanana)

I appreciate these posts.

I once made a custom ivory cejilla for a customer--the peg fit so smoothly and tightened so well with the slightest pressure. (I got the ivory from a website called something like legalivory.com)

Keith, that's amazing about being able to kill 2 elephants a year.

Stephen, amazing that Gruhn's article is dated July 2014.

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www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2014 5:26:18

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to estebanana)

I live in the future and sent it back to you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2014 8:20:49

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to estebanana)

And this, the link to the Gov. site where the Dept. of Fish & Wildife discuss the rules:

http://www.fws.gov/policy/do210.html

Read down to Sec. 3: It's outrageous.

"Sec. 3 Does this Order affect other legal requirements?

a. The AECA moratorium does not apply to raw or worked African elephant ivory imported as part of a sport-hunted trophy, or to ivory from other species."

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2014 8:23:31

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to estebanana)

As a practical matter, I wonder if there is any definitive way to distinguish between ivory and bleached bone. Are they going to suspect the bleached-bone nuts and saddles we use of being ivory? And can people get away with saying that small ivory components are just bone?

Does not apply to sport-hunting trophies? Clearly the guys who go on African safaris to murder (I mean hunt) elephants are rich and have connections in Congress. Funny how the laws are for the rest of us.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2014 14:44:40

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

As a practical matter, I wonder if there is any definitive way to distinguish between ivory and bleached bone. Are they going to suspect the bleached-bone nuts and saddles we use of being ivory? And can people get away with saying that small ivory components are just bone?

This is the question everyone is worried about. Especially those with $10,000 -$20,000 and up old French bows. They have ivory tips as part of the way they were made. Can a guy working at airport customs really tell if it is elephant ivory, walrus ivory, fossil mammoth ivory?

The ivory trade includes fossil ivory which is possible to identify from modern elephant ivory, but you need training and a magnification visor and even then it can be hard to make an identification.

All the ivories have different grain patterns and levels of whiteness depending in the species an how old it is. They have different levels of hardness. I left my ivory collection in the US in the case of another guitar maker because I was afraid to ship it to Japan. Now I wish I had it here because I can use it and sell the guitar within Japan with no trouble like in the US.

Anyway, elephant ivory is very different in texture from walrus ivory for example, but you have to study carefully and look at all the different examples and compare them. Bow specialists can have trouble doing this on bow sized samples that they work with every day so it's not likely field agents will do any better.

Correct me if I misunderstood this, but the terms of how the ban will be enforced by Fish and Wildlife going to be published for public review for 90 days beginning in June 2014- At that point it's possible to rally and contact representatives with letters phone calls and emails.

I'm going to look into it further an post some information from other music organizations about making contact with congress reps to tell them there needs to be moderation steps taken for musicians and industry workers who repair and produce instruments.

The way the enforcement looks right now was not thought our carefully enough to prevent economic damage to the music business. Not to mention scaring the hell out of those who need to tour to make a living. Carbon fiber bows are a great invention but they are simply not Tourte's, Lamy's Pecatte's, Dodd's or better than good contemporary wood bows. And the trade in half the pre war Martin guitars existing will be basically a criminal offense, or a situation that makes the dealer or owner very nervous because it hinges on submitting the instrument to a process of obtaining CITES documentation to prove age and there needs to be trail of sales records.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2014 23:08:41

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

Clearly the guys who go on African safaris to murder (I mean hunt) elephants are rich and have connections in Congress. Funny how the laws are for the rest of us.

It has been pointed out to me that Congress had nothing to do with this; it was an Executive Order by our dear President Obama.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2014 16:39:07

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

what i cannot understand is why there was not a period of time to catalogue current stock--say a calendar year. for example, one could photograph a 75 year old bow, have paperwork done and verified by a notary public person. even if one had to put a microchip in the object at least it beats having some border agent from torching it. going forward if one wanted to travel with the bow or sell it one would be required to provide all of the required documents.

as it stands i have read the economic impact of legally obtained ivory (pre-ban)that cannot be verified by the current system will be around 10 billion dollars.

even though we do not use ivory for our instruments d. nigra is in the same boat and i suspect ebony will soon be in the same category.

as a side note, great p.b.s. show last night on stradivarii and guarneri violins. should be a repeat if p.b.s. follows their usual pattern.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2014 18:25:34

timoteo

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to keith)

http://associationsnow.com/2014/05/musician-groups-earn-exemption-on-federal-ivory-ban/

http://www.fws.gov/news/ShowNews.cfm?ID=01146682-F770-6412-DADBA60BBDA5D4C5

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2014 19:02:33

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to estebanana)

This is still really restrictive and dumb:

How can you prove they were legally acquired unless you have sales ticket from 35 years ago? Completely stupid.

"Service Director Dan Ashe signed a revised Director’s Order that allows musicians to transport internationally certain musical instruments containing African elephant ivory, and for the import of museum specimens and certain other items not intended for sale. Owners of these items will need to prove that they were legally acquired prior to February 26, 1976—the date that the African elephant was listed by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES)—and have not been bought or sold since February 25, 2014—the date when the Service issued Director’s Order 210 instructing agency staff how to enforce existing restrictions on the commercial trade of elephant ivory.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2014 9:26:06

Jim Frieson

Posts: 19
Joined: May 28 2014

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to estebanana)

Dear Estebanana
I refer you a film 'Johnny Stecchino " - Johnny Toothpick , featuring Roberto Begnini .
Think you would like it - the episode of the banana he stole and his dealings with the local police ......

Prince Philip , Prince Charles , their WWF organization raking in the bucks , Julian
Huxley a principal figure in UNESCO founding which is origin of CITES , his brother Aldous who was a prominent MKUltra director ......all lovely people who just want to save the animals . Save them for themselves while they reduce the human population down 90% . Eugenicists all . Documented . Agenda 21 .
I used to buy mammoth ivory after I had a lucid dream in which I could have the beautiful tusk I wanted , but would have to kill the elephant myself to get it . Matador sword in hand and raised high , I realized I could not do it . Around 2006 all mammoth started to completely dry up . It all goes to China . As well as the bulk of African ivory . The Chinese do not give a damn about CITES and do what they want , and no western politician will go near the subject . Ditto for environmentalists - Watermelons , green on the outside......
Basically we are at the mercy of whatever customs official bureaucrat is processing border entry . About time people started to object , and reject Ad Vercundiam appeal to authority .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2014 6:55:53

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to estebanana)

it is not ivory but shell but the principles seem to be the same--especially how the usa fish and wildlife services want money and blood. goldtone is the usa distributor of ramirez guitars and strings.

the second link concerns the t.s.a. in action. it is getting weird out there.

http://www.musictrades.com/news1.html

http://thejazzline.com/news/2014/06/christian-mcbride-bass-bow-stolen-tsa/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 27 2014 18:00:40

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Ivory Advisory Information- Post... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

It has been pointed out to me that Congress had nothing to do with this; it was an Executive Order by our dear President Obama.

True, the new ivory legislation is due to an executive order by Obama. Which seems to be bringing about some form of political and perhaps legal action against him for overuse of this ability. Executive orders were only intended for times of war when action was needed that could not be delayed by going through the appropriate channels.

If the musical instrument industry and the music industry in general were more robust and more well financed…I'd say these issues would be ironed out pretty quickly. Short of that, we need to see a lot more action from people on the ground if they wish to see this changed.

Aaron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2014 13:20:14