RE: Conde Questions

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RE: Conde Questions

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el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

In the Peña de Juan Villar last night, I was thinking that the guitarrist had a really good sounding Conde blanca, but on closer inspection, it was a Jerónimo Pérez.

Who was it ?

Miguel Salado?
He have TWo .

He tell me his jeronimo beat all the conde .
His guitar is good, but i tried it and i prefer good conde.

Diego Amaya, have played a Jeronimo ,but now he return to his ramirez.

It's a good promese luthier for the future.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2014 12:21:54

Bliblablub

Posts: 60
Joined: Oct. 9 2013

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe
"if you don't believe we build guitars, come and watch."

If a shop struggles to convince their customers that they are the ones building the guitars, you know you better get the **** out of there...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2014 13:53:41

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

Ok so, Conde good? Or Conde bad?

I'm confused...

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2014 14:05:22

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

quote:

Ok so, Conde good? Or Conde bad?

I'm confused...

It depend ,but there are generally the best guitar in flamenco.
The professionnal play with that brand .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2014 14:39:25

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Ok so, Conde good? Or Conde bad?

I'm confused...

Depends on your religion...

_____________________________

Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2014 15:11:58

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Ok so, Conde good? Or Conde bad?

I'm confused...

Weeeell. SomeCondes (a minoría) are great. But you could buy 2 guitarras de Jerónimo for 1 of Conde and both would probably sound better

incluso made to your specs.

I am just thinking of calling him for a blanca with pegs (which I don´t need

)

Morante

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2014 15:43:37

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

quote:

quote:

Ok so, Conde good? Or Conde bad?

I'm confused...

It depend ,but there are generally the best guitar in flamenco.
The professionnal play with that brand .

You remind me enormously of my father. He has this thing that whatever he has must be the best and he tries to convince everyone about it.
If he has a Nissan car, those with other cars have to accept that he will tell them 100 times the his car is better.
I can remember That he bought a woodstove and everytime he visited someone with another woodstove they would have to listen to him telling them that they were all wrong in their choice because his woodstove was the best.
If someone tried to discuss with him, then he would consider them to be stupid....
Of course, almost everyone laughed behind his back and noone took him serious.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2014 7:46:28

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

Ok so, Conde good? Or Conde bad?

I'm confused...

-

Anders,

Greetings to your dad!
Once I bought a worn-out Nissan Cherry from our dental laboratory for my girl-friend that I had beaten the sh!t out of myself. ( - Of the car I mean, naturally. I was sorts of a Walter Röhrl when driving to the docs.)
And after all that this thing kept running flawlessly, and pretty agile even.

After my girl-friend and I parted, she found the car reminding her too much of me and went and sold it. After an excursion with a Citroen she went back to the guy who had bought the Nissan and paid him double the money to make him give the car back.

It really was a SOB. All it needed was gas and oil.
... Maybe your old man was on to something there.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2014 10:17:28

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

Ok so, Conde good? Or Conde bad?

I'm confused...

Conde good.
Not like Nissan.

More like this:

Average Conde:

Very Good Conde:

Conde and Good Sanchis:

Few Bad Conde (2003, 2004 ... :D) :

Yamaha ..

Many other guitars:

and andelusional guitars:

Case closed imo.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2014 12:14:24

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

Arash,

That's the funniest thing I've seen on this forum.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2014 12:33:10

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Anders,

Greetings to your dad!
Once I bought a worn-out Nissan Cherry from our dental laboratory for my girl-friend that I had beaten the sh!t out of myself. ( - Of the car I mean, naturally. I was sorts of a Walter Röhrl when driving to the docs.)
And after all that this thing kept running flawlessly, and pretty agile even.

After my girl-friend and I parted, she found the car reminding her too much of me and went and sold it. After an excursion with a Citroen she went back to the guy who had bought the Nissan and paid him double the money to make him give the car back.

It really was a SOB. All it needed was gas and oil.
... Maybe your old man was on to something there.

My dad is right in many things and his Nissan Sunny never gave any problems. At the same time he only drove some 5000km a year, so even a Citroen could have done that without any problems.
His woodstove is also very good and so was his boat, his bicycle and his haircut.
All that is not what I was trying to say. Things are that he has to say it loud all the time and that he has no respect for other peoples preferences. In his opinion they are just uninteligent and therefor in his world stupid.
When you keep saying Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best Conde is best all the time, then it gets ridiculous.

Condesong dinglingdong
some of us are tired of the same old condesong.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2014 12:46:04

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

Love a good horse joke.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 5:13:38

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

Condenao

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 16 2015 2:51:17

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

Holy crap! i know that this thread has been dormant for quite a while but I have a question relating to Conde guitars so rather than start a new thread I figured i'd tack onto the end of one that already exists.
I have just finished reading this epic and it's a roller coaster. I laughed and I cried but I didn't find an answer to the question that I have which regards how one can tell if a guitar was made by maestro Faustino.

Last year I bought a 1973 Conde Negra with a cedar top while visiting friends in Madrid. I wouldn't have tried this stunt on my own but my hosts were musicians who I have toured with in the past as well as a good friend of theirs who is a very well known guitarist who's assistance helped to ensure that I wasn't ripped off. Buying this guitar was a fantastic experience.

The old bloke selling the guitar was (and presumably still is) a gypsy who had played professionally for many years. He had even made it to Australia and rattled off a few choice Spanish haunts that he had played at in Sydney.
The guitar was a bit rough with a couple of well repaired cracks in the top & side and a neck that had been left to dry out quite badly (the Brisbane weather has taken care of that and the neck is now ace). Also, it was clear that the excellent machines that would have originally been fitted had been poached and replaced with a cheap alternative.
My friends haggled for me but he would not be budged past a point and was adamant that regardless of the cracks and the tuners that this guitar was made by Faustino and was worth substantially more than he was asking.
Unfortunately (and also fortunately as it turned out) for me the guitar was smashed by baggage handlers on a flight from Adelaide to Melbourne.
It appears to be very hard to find a replacement for a 1970s cedar Conde built by Faustino. One might say that it is irreplaceable.

So enough banter and onto the question. Is it possible to know for sure if Faustino was responsible for a conde's construction?
I have no doubt that there would have been several pairs of hands who may have assisted at the Gravina workshop however is there any way of knowing if the result was primarily from the hands of the maestro.

I believe that there is no real way to know for sure however the foot of this guitar has a stamp on it that I can't find in any other pictures.
Here is a link to a folder containing photos of the guitar including close ups of the label and stamp.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ud0i4xko2z71r66/AABCaoK2tZXL51XBnTSaXK5ha?dl=0

WARNING! There are a couple of photos of the damage sustained to the guitar which may offend Foro members of a sensitive nature.
I know I feel ill when I look at them.

It's a big guitar and it definitely some duende. The neck is fat but feels good and the ebony slab on the fretboard is about as thick as I've seen. It wasnt super loud but it was well balanced and had very sweet trebles.
Thoughts and feelings? I am keen to hear the opinions of the Foro because I am weighing up how far to go with the restoration of this bad boy.

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My mind's a mess but my whisky's neat.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2016 8:03:21

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS)

that is certainly interesting guitar but I have some thoughts:
The ink stamp looks fresh, should be almost black like on every other conde I've seen
The signature is like that of Faustino's Wife who signed guitars in the 80's and 90's
The media luna middle part is wider than usual
On the sides of the bridge decoration should be about two millimeters of wood as on other condes

I am not sure but in 73 it should be probably sobrinos de esteso label like this
http://www.jedistar.com/images/esteso_sobrinos_label.jpg

Also all 70's condes I've seen were with signature like that above, I think done by Faustino or Mariano

Could be that the guitar you bought is a fake conde, I've been offered one in the past and several are still available.

Conde experts should chime in

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2016 10:11:20

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to tele)

Thanks for the feedback Tele, I admit that I was not sure myself but I put my doubts to rest and decided that it was a great guitar regardless of its provenance. If the concensus is that the maker is questionable then that will inform my decision to pay for restoration.

Thanks for your help

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2016 10:40:07

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS)

take a look at this guitar
http://www.mundo-flamenco.com/nc/en/guitars/gitarren-details.html?tx_kwmundoguitars_pi3[showUid]=151&cHash=7e14a9d623a4cb96660835dda0bfa850

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2016 13:55:54

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS)

Superficially this looks like a fake but there might be a more interesting story.

Firstly look at the label. There was some variation in label design for the media luna and other signed models during the 60’s and 70’s and the different labels overlapped. There were also many more different labels used for unsigned guitars

Labels which referred to Esteso’s widow (Viuda) were used for several years after her death (in spite of what you read on various Conde websites) up until 1965. They overlapped with the familiar “Hermanos Conde – Sobrinos de Esteso” label which continued until the recent closure of the Gravina shop. Another label “Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso“ was used from about 1969 to 1974. To make matters even more complicated there were variations of these with different spacing of the letters and colouring of initial letters.

The pictures below show these features. A best quality guitar in 1973 would have had the Sobrinos label or the Hermanos Conde with red initial letters. Yours does not meet this nor does it have the text layout of either.

The signature on your label is either that of Faustino’s widow Julia or a forgery of her signature . As far as I know she started signing some of the labels a bit later than this when Faustino was getting older and continued to sign after he died. The label looks fresh as if it was not inserted as far back as 1973.

I will post a bit of speculation about your guitar in a separate post.

Rob

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2016 15:42:40

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS)

Faustino Conde died in 1988 and Mariano in 1989. By this time the families had separated into different premises. Mariano’ s sons Felipe and Mariano junior were at Calle Felipe V 2, Faustino’s widow Julia was at Gravina 7 and the younger brother Julio (still alive) was at Atocha 53. Would it be possible for these three branches of the family to use the Conde name to keep generating income?

Media luna guitars signed “Conde Hermanos” started to come out of the Atocha (previously only selling unsigned lower models) and the practice still continues although Julio died in 1995.

Mariano had prepared his sons to take over the business and very quickly substantial numbers of guitars appeared with the Felipe V label.

I suspect that Julia was less able to build on the family name and although guitars signed by her started to appear. It has been suggested that she had someone who had been involved in making guitars with/or for her husband who was producing these. There were reports that Julio was offering the “last guitar made by Faustino” to interested customers – more than once!

It is useless to try and guess who was making the guitars for the different family branches . It has been the subject of much speculation, most of it based on dubious evidence.

So – your guitar. Julia signed “Conde Hermanos” with a big “J” rising out of it before her husband died and just “Conde” with the big J after he died. The two versions are shown below together with your label. So real or forged the signature is of the post Faustino era. Could this have been a failed 70's Faustino project found in the workshop after his death, put into a playable condition and sold with a new label signed by Julia? I have found some further evidence that might shed light on this but this is all I have time for now.

Rob

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2016 18:58:19

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

this recent stuff sounds like fodder for a BBC mystery

if the guitar sounds good to you, who cares! only collectors need a provenance and they don't play

oi! tell me something truly interesting about these guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2016 20:33:06

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

Hey Tele, that link didn't open to a specific instrument. Just the Mundo website. Which guitar was I to look at?

Rob, you seem to have an exhaustive knowledge of all things Conde! I am certainly interested to hear any speculation which you have for me.

And davrom, you are right and a good guitar is a good guitar regardless of the label however I would probably only invest in a high quality restoration if it is a valuable guitar. Otherwise I think that a more basic repair is OK.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2016 23:36:15

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

I would invest in a high quality restoration if it meant I was going to get a great sounding guitar. I don't care who made the guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2016 2:33:11

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

These guys owned some of the very early Conde' guitars. In those days the labels were hand made and signed by Charles V, so they clearly predate the Felipe V.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2016 6:09:39

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

Something in that painting looks not kosher to me. It could be manipulated.

Just look at that mole in the old lady´s face (4th from left). So oversized and the color so deep as if it had been touched up.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2016 8:04:40

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to estebanana)

Humor! Really funny man

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2016 8:29:10

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to estebanana)

OK Stephen – you found me out. I am the small boy with red trousers and hair to match. On hearing of my birth and hair colour a friend wrote to my mother to say that with luck it might darken with age – it didn’t.

I grew up with the Conde phenomenon. I bought my first guitar in Spain in 1960 When you get old you remember a lot of stuff if you are lucky. The big mistake is boring people by telling them what you know.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2016 11:00:32

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

That picture is priceless! As for the Restoration, there is some stiff competition amongst the guitars at my place at the moment so I don't know if it would be played as much as it was.
That said, the neck on that thing feels really good so...
Does anyone have any recommendations for a restoration job in Australia?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2016 12:55:39

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

These guys owned some of the very early Conde' guitars. In those days the labels were hand made and signed by Charles V, so they clearly predate the Felipe V.

Stephen, the original of that painting hangs in the National Gallery of Art in Washington, DC. Until seven years ago, you could walk right up to it without an intervening barrier, but that was before a deranged luthier from Paracho attempted to slash it with a knife. Wild of eye and with trembling lip, he was heard to cry out that the "Leyenda Negra" (Black Legend) about historical Spanish atrocities committed in Mexico is true, and that no respectable institution should be displaying such paintings with Condes or any other Spanish-made guitars in them.

He was raving that it was one more example of the Spanish undercutting good, honest Mexican luthiers, and then he was subdued by a Gallery guard. Since that incident, the National Gallery has placed a velvet rope around the painting to keep visitors at a safe distance, much like the barrier around the Mona Lisa in the Louvre in Paris. Visitors from Mexico are queried closely, and if any are from Paracho they are given a more thorough interrogation and are searched for potential instruments that could inflict damage on the painting.

Finally, one interesting footnote concerning the painting itself. Art historians have meticulously studied it, and, as you point out, note that the labels seemed to be hand-lettered and signed by Charles V. I say "seemed to be," because experts on that era of Spanish history and luthiery have noted that the guitars in the painting do not conform to the shape and size that would be the case were they part of the original painting. That seems to suggest that the guitars were added at a later date. The mystery is who would have added the guitars to the original painting, and why? One line of speculation suggests that the painting was an occult object, and that there is a hidden meaning that only members of the Illuminati or the Rosicrucians understand.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2016 13:49:00

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveyS

Holy crap! i know that this thread has been dormant for quite a while but I have a question relating to Conde guitars so rather than start a new thread I figured i'd tack onto the end of one that already exists.
I have just finished reading this epic and it's a roller coaster. I laughed and I cried but I didn't find an answer to the question that I have which regards how one can tell if a guitar was made by maestro Faustino.

Last year I bought a 1973 Conde Negra with a cedar top while visiting friends in Madrid. I wouldn't have tried this stunt on my own but my hosts were musicians who I have toured with in the past as well as a good friend of theirs who is a very well known guitarist who's assistance helped to ensure that I wasn't ripped off. Buying this guitar was a fantastic experience.

The old bloke selling the guitar was (and presumably still is) a gypsy who had played professionally for many years. He had even made it to Australia and rattled off a few choice Spanish haunts that he had played at in Sydney.
The guitar was a bit rough with a couple of well repaired cracks in the top & side and a neck that had been left to dry out quite badly (the Brisbane weather has taken care of that and the neck is now ace). Also, it was clear that the excellent machines that would have originally been fitted had been poached and replaced with a cheap alternative.
My friends haggled for me but he would not be budged past a point and was adamant that regardless of the cracks and the tuners that this guitar was made by Faustino and was worth substantially more than he was asking.
Unfortunately (and also fortunately as it turned out) for me the guitar was smashed by baggage handlers on a flight from Adelaide to Melbourne.
It appears to be very hard to find a replacement for a 1970s cedar Conde built by Faustino. One might say that it is irreplaceable.

So enough banter and onto the question. Is it possible to know for sure if Faustino was responsible for a conde's construction?
I have no doubt that there would have been several pairs of hands who may have assisted at the Gravina workshop however is there any way of knowing if the result was primarily from the hands of the maestro.

I believe that there is no real way to know for sure however the foot of this guitar has a stamp on it that I can't find in any other pictures.
Here is a link to a folder containing photos of the guitar including close ups of the label and stamp.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ud0i4xko2z71r66/AABCaoK2tZXL51XBnTSaXK5ha?dl=0

WARNING! There are a couple of photos of the damage sustained to the guitar which may offend Foro members of a sensitive nature.
I know I feel ill when I look at them.

It's a big guitar and it definitely some duende. The neck is fat but feels good and the ebony slab on the fretboard is about as thick as I've seen. It wasnt super loud but it was well balanced and had very sweet trebles.
Thoughts and feelings? I am keen to hear the opinions of the Foro because I am weighing up how far to go with the restoration of this bad boy.

Defiantly NOT a Conde man. Looks like Ramirez (Jose III style) rosette and tie block...plus the dark finish/cedar and plantila. I would say it's a Ramirez student guitar or copy (Japan did lots of those) and someone changed or carved the head stock like that, fake stamp and lable. Two things I would look at are inside top any other stamps, bracing pattern, and the back of neck if there was a change of headstock, or a reinforcing strip in the neck (a Ramirez characteristic that a copyist would probably do too).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2016 18:00:57

DaveyS

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero)

Hey Ricardo, I was waiting for someone to pick up on the Ramirez rosette but I have seen this in a few other guitars by established makers use the same rosette and considering the Conde ties to Ramirez....
The fact that it had been repeatedly repaired suggests that it was worth repairing and it definitely doesn't feel student. The neck is substantial and like I've said, the tone is super sweet. Can't really say more than that.

Thanks for the feedback

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2016 9:43:52