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Modern Cante
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withinity
Posts: 180
Joined: Sep. 17 2013
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 RE: Modern Cante (in reply to withinity)
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quote:
Are you speaking about specific recordings? His voice during a certain part of his career?
His melodies?
Or is it a contrast between the relatively high and afillá style of Camaron compared to say, Pavon, or Terremoto, or Sordero, etc etc.
I'm not exactly sure what afilla is but i get the feeling you understand what I'm trying to say even though i now realize i havn't expressed myself properly. Its not about the melodies more so than the definable tone of voice Camaron had. People may have sang the same verses before but the way the sing it is unique , or even just the way they use there voice with the rhythm without any words , there was alot more variance in that sense i feel.
quote:
Seems pretty similar to saying Vicente and Tomatito sound like Paco.
Everybody that picked up a flamenco guitar in the 60's or later, sounds like Paco to some extent. Paco sounded like Nino Ricardo until his meeting with Sabicas.
Obviously, Camaron had a huge impact. Eventually someone will come along
and flip things again.
Yeah well that's kind of part of the reason i made this post , i never realized how they were both revolutionaries in the sense of changing the scene.
Pre Cante Camaron I cant pick out anyone and say ohh yeah they sound like such and such , the cantors of that era seem much more diversified and its harder to pin it down for me, in the same way you can hear obvious guitar playing changes after Paco.
But now i'm getting the impression maybe it was the same way but im just not as familiar with the works of someone like Manuel Torres so i cant see the correlation in the old cante.
quote:
Maybe the main reason for what you consider as rich flavour and the difference between modern cds and old stuff is that nowadays a lot of singers (not all) sing all kinds of palos/styles in prearranged pieces without being really really "personal" in a specific style, whereas in early days there used to be Maestros of specific styles. Fandangos from Caracol for instance were very personal und unique.
That's a good point. Its not just that though, like take Terremoto or Agujetas. They have difference voices man! regardless if they sing in a similar style , you can tell them apart due to the natural tone of their voice. E.g at the beginning of solea they may all sing ay ayyyy ayyyyyyeeeeee but the overall sound of those wordless singing they make is definable to each canator.
If that made any sense , i just feel its harder to identify a particular Canator unlike before.
Anyway guys I am not making any claims rather than just opening discussion from my observations thus far. I am interested and have noone else in real life to talk about this stuff with.
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Date Mar. 8 2014 7:43:08
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Morante
Posts: 2178
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
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RE: Modern Cante (in reply to withinity)
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If you listen to early Camaron, you will see that his influences were from his tierra: El Chaqueta, La Perla, Manolo Vargas. He was a cantaor tradicional. What distinguished him was his "formar de cantar o forma de decir el cante".
If you listen to the great singers such as Tomás Pavón, his sister La Niña de los Peines, Caracol, Fosforito, Mairena, Terremoto etc., you should see that all sing the same cante flamenco, but each with a different style. (I have heard it said that while Caracol tenía voz de hombre, Camaron tenía voz de gato  )
Copiers of Camaron have never had a lot of respect among the afición: in flamenco a singer should have his propio sello, learning from the greats and from the family tradition, but sounding like himself.
Nowadays, I hear a lot of young singers copying Archángel, who seems to be flavour of the month. Perhaps copying Camarón is losing appeal 
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Date Mar. 8 2014 15:04:34
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Modern Cante (in reply to withinity)
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quote:
Or is it just like these guys all dig Camaron so much he such a big impact to Cante the same way Paco did on the guitar ?
That is IT in a nutshell. Now if you investigate deeper into old cante you will realize that it is not totally new. In the old days you had people copy other masters. Perhaps it is not so obvious as the camaroneros, but for example Caracol was a great influence on singers. Caracoleros they were called that tried to copy his style. La Paquera was one. You are absolutely right that the appeal of Camaron has been the inspiration for way too many, for too long. men and women singers. There were so many to copy one would THINK there would be more variety today. One modern singer you might like just for a different sound is JESUS MENDEZ. He is deliberately copying Paquera, a close relative, and therefore, indirectly copying Caracol. After all he sounds like himself, and nothing like camaron, but this thing is quite rare these days. For sure gone are the days like the Golden Era when you had singers such as Nino de Gloria, Torre, or Chacon, making up THEIR OWN melodies.
What has happened since the camaron influence, IMO, is creative singers don't explore or mess with the old cante forms interms of new melodies. THey have a lot more succes, and perhaps fun, being creative within the up beat forms: Rumba, Tango, Buleria. It is a shame, and most aficionados agree with your current assessment, too many Camaroneros.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Mar. 8 2014 16:21:13
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Modern Cante (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
Copiers of Camaron have never had a lot of respect among the afición: in flamenco a singer should have his propio sello, learning from the greats and from the family tradition, but sounding like himself.
Nowadays, I hear a lot of young singers copying Archángel, who seems to be flavour of the month. Perhaps copying Camarón is losing appeal
Exactly my impressions from local peñas. Only a few trying to sound like Camarón de la Isla. Then when I listen to flamenco programs on Canalsur television, when they present the new upcomming singers that have won competitions, they dont sound like Camaron at all. To many copy the voice and fraseo of Archangel, which I really get tired of very fast. Its a pretty and easy to digest kind of flamenco singing that works very well singing Fandangos de Huelva, but lacks balls for other styles.
Actually, singers like Duquende and Potito are kind of old and very linked to the solo guitar movement. Potito is clearly a cantaor festivo and Duquende is a bit in the same.
Do you think Poveda and Maite Martín sounds like Camarón?
All that said, I really like Camarons recordings with Paco. His fraseo is absolutely wonderfull. And its where I like Paco´s playing the most as well.
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Mar. 9 2014 8:11:04
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