Conversation starter: "Speed exercises"

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

Conversation starter: "Speed ex...

I happened to read this post on a classical guitar forum last night and present it here for your discussion:

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=75521&sid=9a0ddab8e6b4a9430747fb9fdecec4e1

The OP (who also posts here) rather confidently states that "speed exercises" (the term never being defined, unfortunately) are a waste of time and speed should come from working on repertoire. It's not certain whether he also thinks this the case with flamenco, but I thought it was interesting enough to repost here. Also, I thought those who responded did a rather poor job of probing the question (but most of them are not experienced players, it seems). Given how many exercises are shared and discussed on the foro, I wonder how this sits with you all?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2014 15:23:15

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

There is truth to both sides.

I like to practice excercises which have as a minimum two techniques and two different speeds.

Ie one bar strumming quavers and one picado semiquavers.

I play them at one 16 th speed and try and get the proportions right. I force the metronome down as low as I can go. Then I play 16th,8th,quarter and half then full speed. When I can keep the proportions good with the super slow metronome I put it um say from 30 to 32 and start the whole thing again.

This means that I have an excercise which focuses on VARIETY and makes me aware of the harmonic rhythm (which is the metronome click which is very slow).

The excercise can be two bars of almost any piece.

If you want to be creative then put it on another set of strings (moving say from por arriba to por medio) or start on a different chord tone ( basically composing a harmony part). Or moving the whole thing to a different scale degree of the same key (ie Strum a Cchord play a c scale becomes strum a Dm and then a Ddorain scale). Or play a different mode on the same tonic (ie CMaj and C scale becomes C7b5 and a phrygian dominant scale.)

When things don't really fit that's when you will learn.

And the variety helps learning to become both memorable and useful.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2014 15:40:29

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

I happened to read this post on a classical guitar forum last night and present it here for your discussion:

Whoa, that was really dumb.

I think some people get frustrated with the guitar, and just
end up typing alot of crap, cause they know they'll get a reaction,
which temporarily distracts them from the fact that they suck at guitar.

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2014 17:23:28

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to ToddK)

Thanks Todd.

I'll type less.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2014 17:26:20

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
The OP (who also posts here) rather confidently states that "speed exercises" (the term never being defined, unfortunately)

Nail on the head there, Mike. That's exactly the problem which leads to a really daft exchange. Just about every virtuoso I can think of has mentioned working on speed development through exercises. Looking at the tone of the original post and follow ups by the OP, I sense a little bit of trolling.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2014 17:53:23

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

truth to both sides

Not being a guitar wizard I am always on the lookout for tips that might improve technique. No doubt creating one's own is superior to using the studies of others but for my limited goals the work of experts seems to be the best course. I play this study by Leo Brouwer every day and while I can play the ima part at a good clip I can't control my thumb which may or may not pluck the correct string. This performer has his under control. Possibly the shape of his thumb, the "banana" thumb, is an advantage.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2014 18:42:32

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

If all you do is play 'repertoire' then I can see the point of his argument (although I believe that technical exercises will help even with written music).

But - if you like to improvise, you need a some sort of abstraction in your exercises. The more techniques you've got under your belt - the larger your vocabulary will be.

If you try to play in a way you've never tried before you'll most likely have technical issues.

aeolus - while I won't dismiss certain physical traits come with advantages/disadvantages I can assure you that through slow and focussed practice you most likely can achieve sufficient arpeggio speeds. I say most likely in case you have a serious condition such as parkinsons or damaged tendons.

I can blaze through Brouwer Etude #6 and VL etude #1 and my thumb is as straight as chuck norris.

To toddk's point - it seems as if some of the posters there think they can reach high levels of playing without sufficient practice/learning. Complaints of 'I don't have time' and such. I don't see how someone can expect to reach any level of proficiency in anything without putting in the work.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2014 23:55:09

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

The OP does admit that speed exercises are useful - he just suggests they are taken from a piece of music. So presumably you can make up various exercises as you see fit. I don't think this is too controversial and it's a reasonable approach. Another poster made a comment that "speed is a result of technique" which I agree with. I doubt you will find any guitarist with good picado who has any problems with arpeggio or tremolo.

I never really tried using a metronome and gradually building up speed. I have my doubts whether it is an efficient use of time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 14:52:56

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Not wanting to disrespect anyone but to me that thread on delcamp is pure "penis talk" that doesnt bring anything useful to the table.

Foroflamenco is already getting flooded by this "mine is bigger than yours" syndrome so I cant see any reason for bringing that kind of delcamp threads over here.

Just my opinion.

Peace

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 14:59:07

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Penis talk? Is that anything like the Vagina Monologue?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 15:21:38

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 25 2014 17:40:06

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 17:37:50

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I've heard pumping nylon is really useful, but I havent gotten it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 17:41:18

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to aeolus)

It's more like this:

Guy #1: "Only a long dick, like mine, can satisfy a woman"

Guy #2: "Your wrong man, thickness is what matters"

Guy #1: "I bet you've never gone beyond foreplay"

Guy #3: "Long dicks FTW! I have a huge one and that's definetely the only way to give pleasure"

Guy #2: "To guy #1, I've been doing professional appearances with Rocco Siffredi if that counts anything to you"

Guy #1: "To guy #2, Yeah, giving your butt to him"

Lesbian #1: "Penis are overrated, love matters the most"

....and so on.

Everyone talks about what they DO whitout even considering the other options, even if its only for the sake of a debate. It's like everyone has a need to validate what works for them and they find that the way to do this is by dissing everyone else's opinions.

Consider "Penis Talk" as "polishing your own knob".

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 17:44:03

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I don't remember casting any aspersions on anyone else Rui. I described the way I have been working recently and I guess I was addressing myself to Miguel whose thread this is.

You are doing quite the opposite, and that's fine.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 17:53:08

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

Lesbian #1: "Penis are overrated, love matters the most"

“The clitoris is pure in purpose. It is the only organ in the body designed purely for pleasure.”
― Eve Ensler, The Vagina Monologues

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 17:54:27

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Dont start the penis analogies again or Arash will pop up and start praising PdL's penis again which just gets disturbing

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 17:55:07

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Rui, not sure what you mean about "penis talk". I wasn't interested in participating in the delcamp thread since most of the participants didn't seem qualified in addressing the subject nor even properly judging the original post. For my part, the original argument was so poorly and vaguely worded that it could serve as an example for multiple logical fallacies. Mainly, what is a "speed exercise", where is the evidence that whatever that is, it doesn't assist in playing the guitar, and by the way--how do you jump from that assumption to just repeating the passage in question over and over?

I have heard of several CG virtuosos advocate a "no-scale" practice method. I'm not sure if this is the same thing as the "no-speed exercise" method. My CG teacher didn't advocate abstract scale practice either, but he still had me play arpeggios, slurs, left-hand pressure exercises. Some of them even fast!

Also, what the heck is this: "The obvious truth is that you will have to practice this new passage exactly the same way and to the exact same extent that you practiced those one hundred speed exercises."

I just don't see how that is obvious when I can point out any number of moves, scalar passages, LH shifts, etc., that were first practiced in some exercise and were then able to be plugged right in, like a module, in repertoire. Scott Tennant's stacatto speed ex was of great use to me and others I know. I can easily take tremolo movements from a trem etude right to Recuerdos or any other more complicated piece.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 17:56:26

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I will clarify what I meant..

Sometimes things get "heavy" around here, everyone knows that. In my opinion, we could talk about speed exercises and share our points of view WITHOUT the influence of a very nasty thread (delcamp).

I joke a lot and Iam aware that some members are more conservative, so I never push too far and people who share my sense of humour can still have a laugh. That "discussion" on delcamp started on the wrong foot and went downhill.

That's all.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 18:35:24

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I don't remember casting any aspersions on anyone else Rui. I described the way I have been working recently and I guess I was addressing myself to Miguel whose thread this is.

You are doing quite the opposite, and that's fine.

D.

What I said wasn't directed at anyone here, it was just a suggestion to the OP (Miguel de Maria) since he was the one who posted a link to that crazy **** at delcamp.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 18:40:03

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Thanks Rui, didn't mean to be touchy.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 18:52:05

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

“The clitoris is pure in purpose. It is the only organ in the body designed purely for pleasure.”

Hmm... I've been using it as a picado practice device.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2014 21:20:30

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I can see how it would be difficult for a beginner to lock into good advice . Speed exercises are useless if the focus of the exercise is not about acquiring the technique to play with speed in a relaxed sustainable way ( Practice makes permanent as Ricardo likes to say ) .This point was made in the decamp thread however there was a lot of agreeing with the original post which did sound like a venting of frustration , and a trail of followers not yet broken their glass ceilings .

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Peace.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2014 3:55:52

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

One of us should go over there and say, "I'm a flamenco player and my picado is faster then all of you and I don't agree."

Lol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2014 4:23:23

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

To respond to the issue in the original post:

Assuming "speed exercises" simply means exercises aimed to improve the speed of some specific technique (e.g i-m picado), there's a grain of truth in Paul's original comment (as I understand it). If one only practices specific technique exercises, then one will most likely only become good at playing specific techniques individually.

Becoming a good flamenco guitarist, however, requires that one not only be able to execute techniques individually but also integrate them; move effortlessly from picado to arpeggio to alzapua, etc. Practicing the integration of one's technique is just as important as practicing any one technique in isolation.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2014 11:23:49

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

I have heard of several CG virtuosos advocate a "no-scale" practice method. I'm not sure if this is the same thing as the "no-speed exercise" method. My CG teacher didn't advocate abstract scale practice either, but he still had me play arpeggios, slurs, left-hand pressure exercises. Some of them even fast!

Also, what the heck is this: "The obvious truth is that you will have to practice this new passage exactly the same way and to the exact same extent that you practiced those one hundred speed exercises."

I just don't see how that is obvious when I can point out any number of moves, scalar passages, LH shifts, etc., that were first practiced in some exercise and were then able to be plugged right in, like a module, in repertoire. Scott Tennant's stacatto speed ex was of great use to me and others I know. I can easily take tremolo movements from a trem etude right to Recuerdos or any other more complicated piece.

why not just post this up on the classical forum? Ask the OP there, I don't understand why you need to bring it here.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2014 15:36:49

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

why not just post this up on the classical forum? Ask the OP there, I don't understand why you need to bring it here.....

I don't see why it's such a big problem posting it here. I think every serious guitarist at some point faced this same question.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2014 21:02:19

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to chester)

quote:

aeolus - while I won't dismiss certain physical traits come with advantages/disadvantages I can assure you that through slow and focussed practice you most likely can achieve sufficient arpeggio speeds. I say most likely in case you have a serious condition such as parkinsons or damaged tendons.

I have no physical limitations and at a reduced tempi I have no problems with the thumb it's when trying to play as fast as I can that the loss of control emerges. Perhaps focusing on the thumb will help. I'll try that tomorrow.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2014 21:36:09

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to mark indigo)

Mark,
I hoped for a good conversation by talented people with insight into learning the guitar. Not something you would really expect at delcamp.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2014 21:37:36

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

I don't see why it's such a big problem posting it here.

because in the section I quoted in particular he is asking what the original poster on the other forum meant.... I thought surely the best thing to do would be to ask the poster what he meant on that forum. I don't have issue with the issue, just thought it was odd to take something from another forum and ask what it meant over here....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2014 22:09:51

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Conversation starter: "Spee... (in reply to mark indigo)

It was a rhetorical question, Mark. Whether or not Ramon (who posts here also, by the way) responds is not the point. I hope this satisfies you and we can get back to the point of the thread.

Or you can go start a conversation on delcamp and ask for further clarification.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2014 22:45:36