Narrow neck

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Narrow neck

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constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Narrow neck

I have a guitar student who has small hands with short fingers and she asked me to build her a guitar with a neck 47 mm wide at the nut and 54 mm wide at the 12th fret.
She is not concerned with scale length since she often uses a capo.

I am curious what experiences you may have had with narrow-neck guitars. My standard is 52 mm at nut and 60 mm at 12th fret. I have built them slightly narrower and slightly wider on request and several times the recipients have wished they had stuck with 52 instead.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2013 16:12:30

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I would consider adding 2-3mm on both ends

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2013 17:07:52

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

well, basically the problem will be hers, but remember to take a high non refundable deposit for a guitar like this one. (I would ask for 100% before starting the building) It will be very difficult if not impossible to find another client for this one.
Ther are many clients with very strong personal ideas about how this and that should be and they have to accept that its their problem if a guitar doesnt turn out the way their brainwork thought it should. Normally they base their knowledge on cerebral ideas and not on experience.
Ther is a reson that 52/60 (62) is factory standard. Its what works the best for most people, even pretty small Spaniards and kids. (I was less the 5feet (150cm) when I started to play full size spanish guitar) 47mm nut 54mm at 12th is very narrow, and unless your client has very skinny fingers, its going to be a problem.
It works on steel strings, because of the higher tension strings and because of the music being played. But nylong strings need more space especially towards the edge of the fingerboard, because the strings are a lot more flexible.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2013 8:23:23

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

occassionally a 50mm flamenco shows up for sale which suggests luthiers will go that narrow. a 50mm nut might be a good alternative for your client--say with a 40-41 string spacing. if your client has small hands maybe a more standard nut size and flatter/thinner neck might do the trick. so many factors here--it might be best to have her sample some configurations before plunking down the money.

anders made a good point about the deposit.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2013 11:02:09

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to tele)

Thanks, guys. This is a difficult client. I told her she would have to pay in full when we talked at her lesson two weeks ago and she said she would do so at her lesson today. But she only brought a $500 deposit and begged me some more to lower the price some more (I already gave her a huge discount, I don't quite know why). She was unsure what width she wanted and she wanted it to be my loss if she didn't like it. I said no way. We finally agreed on 49.5 at the nut, which I think is not unheard of in the old days. I have a feeling she will still beg to have the price lowered when it is done, even though we have it in writing. I'm not always such a sucker.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2013 5:37:48

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Its up to you this with the money, but I have learned to say no and to offer a cheaper model.
There were many flamencos built with 50mm nuts back in the old days. (when people were smaller)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2013 6:07:17

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

There were many flamencos built with 50mm nuts back in the old days. (when people were smaller)

I guess it depends on what you consider to be "the old days".
My 1973 Contreras blanca has a 50mm nut and my 1963 Ramirez blanca has a 51mm nut. That's hardly the "old days", at least to an old fart like me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2013 10:19:43

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I have an old 645 mm scale guitar with 49 mm at the neck. The compromise is not string separation but distance between treble E string and the edge of the fingerboard – a problem exactly as Anders suggests.

As my fingers got older I started to have problems stretching but I found that the neck profile was far more important that fingerboard width. A nice slim rounded profile neck from Manuel Bellido did the job for me.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2013 11:03:54

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

I guess it depends on what you consider to be "the old days".
My 1973 Contreras blanca has a 50mm nut and my 1963 Ramirez blanca has a 51mm nut. That's hardly the "old days", at least to an old fart like me.

Ok, can you then accept the "good old days"?

I was thinking pre 60th

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2013 15:14:30

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

there is a 53 barbero at g.s.i. with a 50.5mm nut and a 659mm scale length.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2013 22:20:39

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to keith)

Thanks, Keith, that is interesting. Long scale length, too.

Anyway, I went ahead with 49.5 and the proportions of the guitar looked nice and I finally got paid after a little hassle (I had asked for a cashier's check but she showed up with a personal check...). I hope she is used to the guitar by now. It has a good sound.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2014 14:25:02

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

The 1973 Contreras with the 50mm nut that I mentioned in my previous post has a 658mm scale length, not including compensation.
The 1963 Ramirez with the 51mm nut has the standard 656mm Ramirez flamenco scale.

I have another flamenco guitar with a 53mm nut and a 655mm scale. I don't have a problem switching from one to the other although I do sometimes wish that the string spacing at the bridge on the Ramirez was a little wider. Things like falsetas with tremolo on the inner strings can feel a bit cramped.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2014 14:31:16

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to C. Vega)

Can you tell us what the bridge spacing is on the Ramirez? I use 11.5 mm between string centers normally (with a 52 mm nut) and for the 49.5 mm nut I used 11 mm.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2014 23:46:09

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

Can you tell us what the bridge spacing is on the Ramirez? I use 11.5 mm between string centers normally (with a 52 mm nut) and for the 49.5 mm nut I used 11 mm.

The Ramirez has a c/c string spread of 56mm at the bridge. The Contreras, with a narrower nut, has a 58mm spacing which, at least for me, is more comfortable.
The third guitar, a rather rare 1997 Pedro C. Valbuena blanca, has a 59mm spread.
The old Ramirez is a nice guitar but, as I mentioned, that string spacing can sometimes feel a bit crowded to me. Overall, I find the Contreras to be very comfortable to play. I don't have a problem with the narrow nuts since I frequently play capoed up but even in the open position they feel fine to me. The wider nut and string spacing of the Valbuena don't present any real playability problems for my decidedly non-virtuosic chops either.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2014 2:22:11

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Narrow neck (in reply to C. Vega)

Thanks. Those are pretty close to what I did. I only did the 11-mm (55-mm spread) spacing with the 49.5-mm nut because the customer has two small hands. I can see that a narrow nut with a wider bridge spacing would be comfortable for some people. A narrow neck feels "fast" to me, somehow.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2014 2:59:27