Did flamenco "peak" in the 70's?

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Did flamenco "peak" in the 70's?

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mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

Did flamenco "peak" in the...

By this question I mean in terms of commercial popularity. It seems to me when watching Rito y Geografia for example that it had gained a good deal of worldwide popularity which was upsetting to some of the old school players who didn't like the changes.

I get the impression that it was much bigger then than it is now

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2013 6:59:38

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to mark74)

Many ethnical kinds of music, like flamenco, Irish Traditional, and all kinds of European folk had a boom in the 70th and they have all lost in commercial atraction.
Right now Flamenco is doing ok in its posh version (Bienal, big concerts, festivals, official stuff etc.) but its root versions is suffering. Here in Spain, what has happened is that because of the economical crisis, people stopped being members of peñas and stopped going out, so there a lot fever places to hear flamenco than just a few years ago, but the ones playing 5 years ago, still play. Just more difficult to find. There are less people learning flamenco now. They are all to busy uploading photos of themself on facebook and writing nobrain messages on twitter. Sad but true.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2013 8:09:15

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to mark74)

Anyone think anything can be done to make flamenco popular again, or is it dead?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2013 18:21:14

withinity

Posts: 180
Joined: Sep. 17 2013

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to mark74)

What do you mean by popular if you mean commercially viable and mainstream then no but that hardly makes it dead.

For those that are interested in Flamenco nothing will change , popular or unpopular does not determine anything IMO especially in this day and age with the whole aspect of appearance and image doing most of the selling to the Popular audiences rather than the music alone.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2013 19:51:45

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to withinity)

Certainly I think in 70's there were many more "very good" flamenco artists than these days, maybe because it was less commercial? As Anders said people are working hard to make money in spain... Personally I see it very likely that quality of flamenco artists and popularity will be only declining in the future... There will be always some hardcore aficionados as with everything but that is far from the worldwide flamenco scene.
On the other hand rumba(and all sort of crappy techno mixes of it) seems to be very popular in spain. The romanticized image most foreign flamenco lovers have of flamenco scene is extinct IMO(I won't be defining this one).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2013 20:33:10

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to mark74)

Nobody seems to care about flamenco not least of all Latin Americans..all my cousins(cuban and mexican) listen to stuff like taylor swift, hip hop or if they're feeling ethnic regaeton or a little salsa..so if latins don't even listen to flamenco who would?

Most people who like flamenco in the U.S. that I know are aging metal heads ( a dying breed in themselves)and everyone says no one listens to it in Spain anymore so I'm pretty sure its dead

I remember as a kid inthe 80's the gispy kings were huge and Paco was revered among metal heads who played Metallica in the garage...no-one would care about either one these days

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 1:48:56

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to mark74)

quote:

Certainly I think in 70's there were many more "very good" flamenco artists than these days

Who are these artists and where did they go?

quote:

Most people who like flamenco in the U.S. that I know are aging metal heads ( a dying breed in themselves)and everyone says no one listens to it in Spain anymore so I'm pretty sure its dead

I think you'd be surprised by the amount of Megadeth shirts you see outside of a high school. I still go to a fair amount of metal shows and I see A LOT of high school kids still, and these are bands like Anthrax, Testament, Slayer, etc not just new bands. I have some young metal head friends and they still revere Paco. BTW I'm 30 does that make me an aging metal head?? lol

Puro se murió en los anos 70, nuevo nació en el mismo tiempo, nada mal, pero así es.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 2:48:31

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to mark74)

quote:

and everyone says no one listens to it in Spain anymore so I'm pretty sure its dead

Flamenco is not dead and most probably it wont die ever. Its just having a hard time. Its not the first time things are like that. Before thee boom that started in the late fifties and which topped around 1970, flamenco was in deepshit crisis for a very long time. It only existed in families and a few peñas, but it came back.
Exactly the same has happened to many other ethnical music styles here in Europe.
Maybe its good thing that flamenco takes it easy for a couple of decades. It came to a point where it was way to much show off, fashion and pop.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 7:26:06

Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to mark74)

quote:

Flamenco is not dead and most probably it wont die ever. Its just having a hard time. Its not the first time things are like that. Before thee boom that started in the late fifties and which topped around 1970, flamenco was in deepshit crisis for a very long time. It only existed in families and a few peñas, but it came back.
Exactly the same has happened to many other ethnical music styles here in Europe.
Maybe its good thing that flamenco takes it easy for a couple of decades. It came to a point where it was way to much show off, fashion and pop.

ya, I believe that was right, and spot on,

it looks like flamenco players, dancers, singers and luthiers having a very hard time making money from their profession,

I heard that gerardo own a grape farm and making wine and vicente carillo a supplier for guitars wood, they are not only depending on their main work to make money,

I believe that flamenco education is very important, normal people are not aware about puro flamenco, or what is flamenco, let say the beginner young guitar players, lets say the music class at the primary school or the intermediate school, that not only let the students play with their drums, but educate them about the theory of music including flamenco.

from what I see, a lecture for beginners player about flamenco history, types of palo, keys, compass etc... will open their minds and will clear the blur vision about it.

for example what I found here in the gulf region, guitar players who claim to play flamenco, they start with rumbas, rhythmic rumbas as flamenco, two player should play it; one go solo and the other rhythm the chords, and that is flamenco!!! the fast you go picado and scales the better your are as flamenco guitarist, this is the idea here.

its not those guys fault , its by default, that what they can reach, that what is available as a media, videos and flamenco education.

so , to correct this problem, and education must be available, in many shapes, videos, lectures, private lesson and creating community ti gather all the guitars players who seeks this types of information.

another problems is the Fakemenco guitars!! lots of young flamenco hobbyist even the advance guys have no idea, about flamenco guitars types, wood types, bracing system, sound etc... so they end up with an over price fakemenco guitar sound like a box.

I believe education is very important and where it must be accessible as a verity of resources.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 8:09:44

gerundino63

Posts: 1746
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to mark74)

Do not forget the flamenco that is played outside Spain.
I think flamenco is getting bigger and bigger, but it is not stricktly in Andalucia anymore.

A bit like the blues......not only played stricktly in the Mississippi Delta anymore.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 8:44:39

Morante

Posts: 2199
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

In 1979, coinciding, with the opening of Spain after the death of Franco and the end of censorship and the Madrid movement (which mostly copied American and English pop and punk music) Ricardo Pachón recorded Leyenda del Tiempo and did for Camarón what Col. Parker did for Elvis: set him on a path of cheesey commercialism and dealt a body blow to flamenco.

The only saving grace was that Camarón continued to sing flamenco in live performances with Tomatito and in this period made some of his best recordings, live.

The recording was well received by the general public, who were enthused by everything new and foreign, but was rejected by many aficionados and flamenco artists.

http://www.larazon.es/detalle_lateral/noticias/4696471/cultura+musica/camaron-contra-los-ecos-del-tiempo#.UqhNeyd_hIE

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 10:38:58

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to Morante)

I don't know man, I like Leyenda del Tiempo.

Art does not stand still, though often we wish it would. Life goes on. In my day, people wrote letters, on paper, in their own handwriting; now they use their thumbs to mash out abominable, pop-culture reference-laden non-communication. The 1920s saw the greatest number of pianos sold, because at that time normal people played music for their own friends and family, then the radio, and worse, the TV came, turning us into passive consumers of whatever the broadcasters gauged would result in higher soap sales. The world turns...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 14:09:05

Morante

Posts: 2199
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Do you really believe that anything goes because life goes on???????????

I once gave a lecture on flamenco to a group of rich American kids who had come to Cádiz, paid by daddy, to learn Spanish. They ignored the classes and spent all their time in discos looking for "adventure".

For some reason, we began to talk about progress and one of them was of the opinion that progress was above everything. I asked him for his opinion of the American genocide of the American Indian, which is one of the greatest atrocities of modern history.

He replied that it was necessary for progress and the Indians were of little import.

I excused myself and abandoned the lecture: I cannot comprehend closed minds.

Progress at all costs no vale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 15:20:28

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

He replied that it was necessary for progress and the Indians were of little import.

Progress is difficult to define. This is convenient for those commercial victors who would use it as a mask for avarice.

The meaning it once had requires that one make a great deal of assumptions. Primarily that there is a god and that he has a plan and that as we approach it we approach the perfection of his plan.

I cannot stomach this kind of thinking but then I have no connection to commercial victory.

Still this idea of progress is buried like a maggot at the heart of many philosophies. Truly vital to and yet strangely unobserved by their adherents. Sometimes the travesties that they excuse are played out like games on our TV screens. In previous generations the battle of the white of progress and reds or browns were played out in different deserts. Retold from the perspective of progress and the certainty of rightness and with little interest in actual events or their true motivation.

Some progress narratives are more quietly insidious and closer to home for musicians. Buckethead for example is apparently a marvelous guitarist who has brought music forward. I challenge anyone to play through the music of Weiss and not to understand that here was a fellow with still much more to offer.

Or maybe it is easy to just assume that I haven't understood. For there is a god, he wears a white cowboy hat,and the narrative of progress cannot be questioned no matter if it is hijacked by Guitar Player or Mitt Romney or, and this might come as a surprise, if it is stated thus

'Change you can believe in'.

Any circular argument that defines rightness by what is done must come with considerable sweeteners. One should never be surprised that those who have not the sugar find them distasteful.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 15:49:19

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Exactly the same has happened to many other ethnical music styles here in Europe.

This is a worldwide phenomenon and in addition, is not limited to music and not limited to flamenco or european ethnic music either.

Traditional persian music isn't attractive for most iranians.
Instead they hear this techno crap with some stupid iranian love lyrics from terrible singers whose voices are the worst i have ever heard.

Sorry but in the world of "facebook", everything becomes facebook.
I rejected to sign up for a facebook account, even though all my relatives and friends have one and looked at me as an alien. But i told them i am not interested to know when someone goes to the toilette or their daily moods.
Progress is good. Stupidity and uselessness isn't.

I like to upload Phalus and Vagina pics to flamenco forums though.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 16:42:37

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to mark74)

quote:

I rejected to sign up for a facebook account, even though all my relatives and friends have one and looked at me as an alien.

I'm with you man, NEVER will I sign up. In fact I wont even date a girl that facebooks. Some day people will look back and realize we're the smart ones!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 17:36:30

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I came across an interesting theory that American liberalism is an atheistic sect of Protestantism. There really are so many things that don't add up in that philosophy that the theory is compelling. Americans tend to "believe" in progress without ever carrying that to its logical conclusion or even questioning it. We also tend to "believe" in science in exactly the same way other generations believed in God. Where we would once say "that's not very Christian", we might now say "that's not very scientific". True debate or scrutiny is thus avoided. On the economic front, the popular idea of capitalism and "the invisible hand" takes on religious qualities and even iconography and is used to sort out and justify the classes in the same way religion once did. American conservatism is based on Protestant Christianity, of course; it underpins everything and can justify the widespread poverty, slavery, and genocide. If you agree that these forces are significant threads in the American psyche, the results generally make sense. That being said, I doubt any other culture is particularly saner, they just have less power so can do less damage.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 17:48:30

Escribano

Posts: 6418
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Progress is difficult to define.

Most MP3s are sampled much worse than vinyl or a even a CD. Mass digital photography is way worse than film and printing. A personal letter or thank you card is much better than an email.

What is really bad is that they create so much 'white noise' that it is almost impossible for diamonds to shine through.

It's not progress, it is a convenience for the masses and lots of money for the few.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 18:29:12

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to Escribano)

Spot on Simon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 19:54:15

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to mark74)

quote:

We also tend to "believe" in science in exactly the same way other generations believed in God.

Science goes through a system of rigorous peer revue before it is published, in which many of your professional rivals do their best to poke holes in your findings. I don't remember the Papacy having such a process.

I do "have faith" in science but I know it's not %100, but there's really no other option.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 20:12:10

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

Mass digital photography is way worse than film and printing.

To add insult to injury--"Taking photos interferes with memory:"

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/taking-photos-interferes-with-memory-study-20131211-2z4oc.html

I read elsewhere that music is becoming more simple over time. Bands like Korn are proof of this...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 20:24:42

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to mark74)

Man, you guys are stuck in a huge affirmation bias loop.

How is Korn's music simpler than the Beatles' Twist and Shout? If anything, music is becoming more complex. Take a music history class.

What's bad about sampling music at a lower bitrate for the added convenience of being able to listen to wherever? It's not like CDs/vinyls/live music isn't around anymore.

Having a facebook profile doesn't mean your life revolves around it. It can be a convenient way of not losing touch with people you rarely see.

Being a Luddite does not infer intellectual superiority.

The world changes, and life's rules change with it. Sticking to your guns and crying that it's all gone to hell only contributes to an 'us vs them' mindset.

I like Miguel's point about the piano and us becoming more passive consumers. But without the revolution that the radio brought about, how many of us would have heard of flamenco?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 20:55:39

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

I do "have faith" in science but I know it's not %100, but there's really no other option.....

Hey Len gotta disagree with you there. I have some UNDERSTANDING of and CONFIDENCE in science. But science does not require faith, quite the opposite. It requires testing and revision and is at it's strongest when demonstrable.

Really quite the opposite of faith.

Hey Chester maybe try and look at things a bit like this.

Think of the world of fashion. Each year everything changes a little to reinvent the past and to recombine old ideas and looks in new ways. And when these reinventions achieve some kind of coherence we have a recognisable style

Further to this imagine that clothes could in fact last for ever with never a stain nor tear. So with no need of new things what would happen to design? Well there will always be a place for new and brilliant things but these will be by definition a tiny minority.

So what is required to perpetuate fashion as an industry is for each generation to throw out the treasures of the past by being convinced to find them irrelevant. And if the replacements are mass produced and of little intrinsic value then all the better......

I find that nostalgia has a bad name and the people associated with it, men over forty like myself deemed irrelevant. And so we should be for having discovered the value of the past it is harder to convince us to invest in the shallow.

And all too easy to convince the rest that we just don't get it.

And we are far from hostile to the new. It is just that, as has always been the case, the vast majority of it is rubbish. And nostalgia has value when it opens the door the splendor of the past.

All just sitting waiting for us tucked away in the wardrobe. over there in the corner behind the TV.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 21:15:36

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to mark74)

quote:

Hey Len gotta disagree with you there. I have some UNDERSTANDING of and CONFIDENCE in science. But science does not require faith, quite the opposite. It requires testing and revision and is at it's strongest when demonstrable.

No I got you. I was speaking for me personally, I personally have to have faith because I haven't taken the time to verify a lot science that I believe to be true. A physicist doesn't need faith, he just knows.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 21:34:26

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to Leñador)

We need a clear definition of what we want the word faith to mean.

I perhaps should develop my concept (perhaps best exemplified in the story of Doubting Thomas in the Gospel of John from the new testament) that there is a difference between confidence and faith.

If one has a friend of some experience and a knowledge and no particular penchant for tomfoolery and he wraps a parachute for you and encourages you to jump out of an earoplane then you will be displaying confidence. If a different friend gives you no parachute and sends you on a plane with not silk but tnt strapped to your back and tells you that in the end will be paradise then, should you trust him you will be displaying faith. With faith problem of proof has nothing to do with either laziness or intelligence, time convenience or indeed anything else.

I had a very religous upbringing before rejecting utterly religion at the age of nine. The definition of faith as it pertains to the catholic religion of my youth is very discrete from the definition that you are using. So I don't suspect we disagree much at all. But the capacity for confusion as a result of insufficiently defined terms worries me.

(PS Len I hope my example was in sufficient bad taste that you will forgive me breaking my promise not to be in earnest too often).

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 21:58:01

Morante

Posts: 2199
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Hey folks

We were talking about flamenco. I expressed a somewhat "Luddite" view of Leyenda del Tiempo, although I am by no means a Luddite

I also included a link which went some way to support this view.

What about some opinions on the importance of the record?

But remember you cannot understand flamenco without understanding the social history of Spain. Everything is subject to the general historic changes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 22:45:36

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to Morante)

As I recall you mentioned the North American Indians.

I will just add that here in Scotland in the seventies we had a lot of earnest and nationalistic programming featuring Scottish music.

We do not any longer as the four old channells have to compete with the sea of cable tripe. So now we get light stuff with 'folk fusion' and at hogmanay lots of bands who play ceildh music with rock sensibility at rock tempo with a light show.

It seems to be the same in Spain and everywhere else.

The funny thing is that the opportunity to explore other cultures with a diversified media may be the very thing which has reduced the role of folk musics in their home territory. Also folk music fails to meet my criteria for fashionability (as I describe above) in a truly spectacular way.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2013 23:10:38

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2013 1:15:40

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2013 1:19:17

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Did flamenco "peak" in... (in reply to chester)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

Having a facebook profile doesn't mean your life revolves around it. It can be a convenient way of not losing touch with people you rarely see.

Being a Luddite does not infer intellectual superiority.

The world changes, and life's rules change with it. Sticking to your guns and crying that it's all gone to hell only contributes to an 'us vs them' mindset.

I like Miguel's point about the piano and us becoming more passive consumers. But without the revolution that the radio brought about, how many of us would have heard of flamenco?

I hear you man.
But thats really not the point.
Simon for instance works at microsoft.
I myself am up to date about computers, technology, etc.
I just visited a 3D printer technology fair here in Germany/Frankfurt (thats really interesting and revolutionary stuff and in the beginning stages). I couldn't see a single teenager there, they were probably busy with facebook.

Its not like everybody is a luddite here and would like to live in a jungle and feel superior. But i remember 10 years ago when for instance i was in a city train, people would at least look at eachother from while to while and maybe even exchange a "hi" or something. Today you only see zombies with lowered heads looking at their mobiles writing and reading BS. The majority of the activities are really useless and destroying real social skills and replacing them with fake ones. Technology is now often misused to exploit human weaknesses and make addicted zombies out of them.

quote:

Ricardo Pachón recorded Leyenda del Tiempo and did for Camarón what Col. Parker did for Elvis: set him on a path of cheesey commercialism and dealt a body blow to flamenco.

how can leyenda del tiempo be the start of the commercialism when in fact as far as i know that record wasn't sold in high numbers and people even brought back the cd to the shops and complained its not flamenco...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2013 3:15:39

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