RE: Mano a mano

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RE: Mano a mano

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guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to aeolus)

Really ? I posted one this very day and the response was mild interest. But my intent was not to fan the flames.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2013 22:04:48

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to guitarbuddha)

What happened to your post of jazz instruction? It drew a rebuke from the head master as OT and now it's gone.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2013 11:12:00

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to aeolus)

Maybe another of my many mistakes/faux pas ?

I know a little bit more about jazz than I used to, but less than many.
If you have something that you are working on and have a specific question then I will look at it in a fresh post.

I might have some tips to offer. But you might have a better handle on it than me. Still maybe someone else could chip in to help fill in any blanks. What are you working on ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2013 11:45:18

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

quote:

It is good that the facile prejudices of the Segovia generation seem to be fading. So many things do in the light of day.

Where that the case here as a post of a classical performance induces reactions similar to Dracula presented with a cross. .

The "facile prejudices of the Segovia generation" were still alive and well ten years ago when I was introduced to a classical guitarist as someone who played flamenco guitar, and the first (and only) thing he said to me was "flamenco, that's hitting the guitar while drunk, isn't it?"

the reaction you get is not to posting classical performances per se, but telling people that classical guitar instrumentals are in some way superior to flamenco guitar instrumentals.... on a flamenco forum whose membership is almost entirely guitarists who like solo flamenco guitar..... the general interpretation of your intent is that you are trying to annoy everyone.

quote:

What happened to your post of jazz instruction? It drew a rebuke from the head master as OT and now it's gone.

As I understand it (I didn't make the rules and I'm not part of the admin) posting either classical or jazz vids or discussion in the "general flamenco" section of the forum is technically "off topic", and should be posted in that section (where there is also a thread on early Spanish music) unless there is a really strong relevance to flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2013 12:05:07

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

The "facile prejudices of the Segovia generation" were still alive and well ten years ago when I was introduced to a classical guitarist as someone who played flamenco guitar, and the first (and only) thing he said to me was "flamenco, that's hitting the guitar while drunk, isn't it?"

I see that attitude around guitar societies and festivals and the like. But it is generally amongst the weaker players. Players with little knowledge of music outside the classical tradition and precious little in it. They fool no one.

The same dudes affect contempt for the piano as 'a piece of furniture'. There was a series of podcasts linked to a while back with the likes of Scott Tennant and Grisha and all of them seemed to respect and enjoy all genres and the playing in them.

I remember reading an old interview where Sabicas cited Segovia as his favourite guitarist. And hats off to him, he was a man with nothing to prove.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2013 12:12:26

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Here is an example. One summer when I was a student one of the tutors (now the professor I think) organised a guitar festival. He recommended that all of the guitarists in the college attend the flamenco course as it would be more interesting since we had been studying classical all year.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2013 12:26:37

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I remember reading an old interview where Sabicas quoted Segovia as his favourite guitarist. And hats off to him, he was a man with nothing to prove.

My first guitar album was Sabicas and he included some Tarrega with his flamenco and an album of Vicente Gomez who included some Sor with his flamenco creations. He had a good gig going in Hollywood at the time which was going through its Spanish period Errol Flynn have gotten too old for his signature English swashbuckler roles. And the Guitar Review included a number of falsettas that Segovia had collected in his travels. Segovia had traveled through Andulasia with de Falla and Lorca trying to revive the cante and some artist did a painting showing Segovia accompanieng the singers with his guitar. So it wasn't always such a separation.
Right now I am going through some Sanz which doesn't tax the fingers much. I just printed out a page of Taranta by PDL under discussion and it seems to lay under the fingers better better the Amigo I tried. Think I print it all out and maybe you could help.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2013 12:42:22

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

Think I print it all out and maybe you could help.

I could try but I don't play the piece so I wouldn't have so much to offer. Maybe some of the other guys could help with specifics. Best of luck !!!

D

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2013 12:53:09

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

the reaction you get is not to posting classical performances per se, but telling people that classical guitar instrumentals are in some way superior to flamenco guitar instrumentals.... on a flamenco forum whose membership is almost entirely guitarists who like solo flamenco guitar..... the general interpretation of your intent is that you are trying to annoy everyone.

Maybe tease if anything. I don't see classical players as superior to flamenco. The music, well maybe as I don't really understand what is going on in flamenco. But I'm working on it. Maybe playing through taranta might be instructive.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2013 13:17:02

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to guitarbuddha)

GB, I'm not so sure about your last comforting statement. The cross-over thing looks to be a dying instrument's last grab for some market share rather than a comment on the validity of flamenco or South American folk music as part of classical guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2013 16:07:58

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus
.... I don't really understand what is going on in flamenco. But I'm working on it. Maybe playing through taranta might be instructive.

A relatively straightforward soleá, like the one in Paco Peña's "Toques Flamencos" would be better. You would get an introduction to compás, the most important element in flamenco, and the "andalusian cadence", a basic harmonic element in many palos.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2013 16:25:47

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to guitarbuddha)

OK....as I thought Amazon has used copies reasonable.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2013 19:24:20

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

OK....as I thought Amazon has used copies reasonable.

You won't be sorry, Pena's book is a must have. I think every classical guitar teacher I know has a hole in their bookshelves waiting for a pupil to return a copy. And I am sure someone here can help you out with a recording which is vital as the real heavy lifting is done by listening over and over.

When I first started listening to flamenco this was my introduction. Then a friend put on Paco's Sirocco album one night after the pub. I was unwise enough and arrogant enough to criticise it by comparison with the Pena.

That now simply seems laughable. But at the time my ears just weren't ready. I didn't understand or appreciate the far more advanced syncopation neither did I understand that often the melody (or at least the business of composition/development) was in the playful recombination of rhythmic ideas and motifs. Also the departure from standard sustaining textures (which unite classical guitar and old school flamenco) left me confused.

And of course I was simply jealous of Paco because it was clear to me, even though I was still to be convinced of his compositional skill, that being able to do anything remotely similar myself would be a herculean task.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2013 13:44:43

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I didn't understand or appreciate the far more advanced syncopation neither did I understand that often the melody (or at least the business of composition/development) was in the playful recombination of rhythmic ideas and motifs. Also the departure from standard sustaining textures (which unite classical guitar and old school flamenco) left me confused.

Right....when I first started playing I listened to a lot of flamenco but stopped at some point and tho I would read something about PdL now and again , I never listened to him. So my ears are still calibrated to old school playing. Digging through my CD stash I find Cositas Buenas. I don't remember playing it more than once. Give it another go.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2013 14:55:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to aeolus)

Paco's music deliberately "evolves" over the course of his recorded history. A random sampling from different time periods will leave any new comer confused. On the other hand, studying ONLY him alone, say just one form like Solea or buleria etc, one can organize a play list in order by date recorded and in the course of an hour or so, get the whole history of how the flamenco guitar has evolved to the present day. I have my personal favorite albums of paco, but taken as a whole, his body of work recorded is almost more beautiful than any singular performance. I tend to recommend new comers to listen to paco's early recordings first so they can get the point of the direction his music took up to Siroco and beyond. It's a challenge for listeners IMO.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2013 15:24:54

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

OK....as I thought Amazon has used copies reasonable.

You won't be sorry, Pena's book is a must have. I think every classical guitar teacher I know has a hole in their bookshelves waiting for a pupil to return a copy. And I am sure someone here can help you out with a recording which is vital as the real heavy lifting is done by listening over and over.

My father (at the time the best classical guitar teacher of this part of the world and the head teacher of classical guitar at Rotterdam Conservatory) bought himself/us a copy when it was just released. I was 14 at the time and we were going to attend my first Paco Peña/flamenco concert. I can still remember that i was convinced i was able to play a bit of tonights soleares myself, because i knew how to play the first lines of the Toques Flamenco Soleares. Obviously i didn't know flamenco does not work like that at all, nor the fact Paco already recorded 5 pieces called Soleares at the time. I found out very soon because the concert made me quit taking classical guitar lessons immediately in order to study flamenco full time and my first deed was buying every Paco Peña record i could find.

quote:

When i first started listening to flamenco this was my introduction. Then a friend put on Paco's Sirocco album one night after the pub. I was unwise enough and arrogant enough to criticise it by comparison with the Pena. That now simply seems laughable. But at the time my ears just weren't ready.

The same over here. The first 2 records i bought myself were obtained in London during a school trip were we had 2 free hours to spend shopping and i found myself the biggest record store i've ever seen. I bought myself a copy of both "the flamenco world of Paco Peña" and "Fuente y Caudal" of Paco de Lucia. Back in the Netherlands i soon bought everything i could buy from these 2 giants and although i knew from my father Paco de Lucia was by far the better one the first couple of years i mainly listened to Paco Peña for no other reason then that my ears/brain were indeed not ready yet to cope with someone like Paco de Lucia. Even at the age of 24 (and part of the first group of students of Paco Peña's school of flamenco) i was not able to recognize the incredible depth of "la Barrosa" on first ear when it was played on stage for the first time. My fallow flamenco students on the other hand were totally exited and so was my father who ear played the bootleg the very same night simply because he could not sleep without knowing what the hell happened during that incredible intro :-).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2013 15:38:10

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

On the other hand, studying ONLY him alone, say just one form like Solea or buleria etc, one can organize a play list in order by date recorded and in the course of an hour or so, get the whole history of how the flamenco guitar has evolved to the present day.

I used to do this with my records as well. So when Soleares was on the program i would make myself a tape with all soleares recordings in my possession in order of recording date. ... a great reference date whenever i wanted to select//upgrade/check material. I made a tape like that for all the styles i had to study/play.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2013 15:53:47

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Paco's music deliberately "evolves" over the course of his recorded history. A random sampling from different time periods will leave any new comer confused. On the other hand, studying ONLY him alone, say just one form like Solea or buleria etc, one can organize a play list in order by date recorded and in the course of an hour or so, get the whole history of how the flamenco guitar has evolved to the present day. I have my personal favorite albums of paco, but taken as a whole, his body of work recorded is almost more beautiful than any singular performance. I tend to recommend new comers to listen to paco's early recordings first so they can get the point of the direction his music took up to Siroco and beyond. It's a challenge for listeners IMO.

To agree with Ricardo and provide an analogy.

If you want to understand what is happening in Schoenberg then it is a good idea to start with Beethoven and take your time getting through Wagner and Strauss. And really do take your time, enjoy the trip.

Maybe at the end you'll want to go straight home. But you'll have learned a lot on the way, and there will definitely be the odd pang of nostalgia. And maybe for the next trip take a different route and hit Shostakovich and Britten.

How was Paco able to cover so much ground so quickly ?. Well like (and go ahead groan

) Bach and (for variety) Handel he is a synthesist. He absorbed and incorporated everything that he could get his hands on to refine his mature style. And not just from guitar but from percussion, and not just from Spanish traditions but many others.

If you go ahead and listen to his discography there is a real sense in which he is leading you through a good century of the aural tradition in world music from his perspective.

Time well spent for any musician.

And of course it will give you a great grounding to assess other younger flamenco players and you'll see why there is such universal admiration for Tomatito and here at the foro for our very own John Walsh.

It will also give you a new perspective on some of the classical players you have heard. Some you thought were good may suffer but the great ones shine even brighter.

You are clearly by turns fascinated and puzzled by flamenco. That is pretty much how we all started and where most of us, myself included find ourselves still. Enjoy it.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2013 15:58:37

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I tend to recommend new comers to listen to paco's early recordings first so they can get the point of the direction his music took up to Siroco and beyond. It's a challenge for listeners IMO.

thanks for the tip. Think I'll start with a solo album first from 1967 La fabulosa guitarra de Paco de Lucía.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2013 16:01:41

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

Think I'll start with a solo album first from 1967 La fabulosa guitarra de Paco de Lucía.

Careful though, my ego has never quite recovered from that one !

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2013 16:06:14

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Well like (and go ahead groan ) Bach and (for variety) Handel he is a synthesist. He absorbed and incorporated everything that he could get his hands on to refine his mature style. And not just from guitar but from percussion, and not just from Spanish traditions but many others.

I think all artists of any genre start from where their antecedents left off.
But there are notable exceptions such as Filippo Brunelleschi whose brilliant intuitive design of the Cathedral in Florence staggers the imagination. I am excited to begin a survey of the works of PdL whose transformation of the art of flamenco might be equally inspiring.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2013 21:20:59

Bliblablub

Posts: 60
Joined: Oct. 9 2013

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to aeolus)

I think listening to PdL playing flamenco is inspiring enough.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2013 22:00:13

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Mano a mano (in reply to Ricardo)

Is it possible he's using two finger classical tremolo?

I use the classical tremolo when I play..his sounds better than mine, but maybe thats what sounds different

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2013 6:09:58