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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR   You are logged in as Guest
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Ricardo

Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

This whole ridiculous scenario is just too convoluted and bizarre to be believed.

I can't help but shake my head in amazement at the amount of naivete exhibited on this forum.




_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 14 2013 17:47:37
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

This whole ridiculous scenario is just too convoluted and bizarre to be believed.

I can't help but shake my head in amazement at the amount of naivete exhibited on this forum.

Finally somebody said it! Thank you Sr. Vega!

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 14 2013 18:19:15
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to jshelton5040

You guys are certainly welcome to your opinion but let it be based on fact, not innuendo. To say this is convoluted is almost like saying it is a prefabricated falsehood, which is totally off course. The guitars are real and they are exciting to play.

In the beginning, Roger Thurman used to get verbally beat over the head about his sound port design until Richard Brune built one prototype in league with Roger's design, and Bob Ruck started building a similar design of his own.

Charlie, play the flamenco guitar before you insert foot in mouth, and John, I\well, what can I say?

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 14 2013 19:04:23

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

What in the hell do Thurman, Brune, Ruck and soundports have to do with any of this? Tom, you're bouncing from one damn thing to another in this thread.

I've been around the block more than a few times with this guitar stuff and I'm quite familiar with the ins and outs of the Spanish guitar business. I've visited numerous individual maker's shops, larger multi-person workshops, guitar factories and wood dealers in Spain which I don't believe Tom has done to any real extent. Spanish guitar factories, like Adalid's Esteve operation, exist to make money. Guitar making is a business. They don't look at guitars as high art. A guitar is just another "unit".
It's my understanding that Manuel Adalid is the factory manager and may do some of the design work but, while perhaps quite capable, he actually does very little, if any, work on any guitars himself.
Take a look at Ron Fernandez' website. www.fernandezmusic.com
He's been importing Esteve/Adalid guitars for a long time. He says that Adalid is the boss man but mentions nothing about him actually making any guitars himself.
Adalid is not listed, or even mentioned, as a guitar maker in any of the reference sources that I'm familiar with.
And, FWIW, the Esteve website shows eight different "Manuel Adalid" models but makes no claim or any mention whatsoever that any of them are built, either entirely or in part, by Adalid himself or his son. These guitars are readily available from various dealers in the US, Europe, Japan and Australia. There are just too many of them out there for them to have been made by one or two people. Do the math.
The "Juan Hernandez" line of guitars are made in the same factory and these guitars also are readily and easily available. There is a real Juan Hernandez. His entire guitar making career has been within the Esteve factory and he most certainly does not personally make all of the guitars that bear his name either.

The Alhambra factory used to market, and perhaps still does, a couple of guitar lines with the names of two different "luthiers" on the labels. Some of the dealer marketing hype was the usual standard Spanish guitar BS....like they had both trained in the Ramirez shop, blah, blah, blah. There were two men with those names and they did work at Alhambra but in reality neither of them ever worked for Ramirez and neither of them actually made any of these guitars. They were both managers at the factory.

Do your homework. Ask pertinent questions and don't just accept the sales pitches at face value. But, above all, just use common sense. If something rubs you the wrong way or things just don't seem to add up, walk away.

Unless you really know what's going on with a particular instrument the wording on a label can be very misleading and can drag you into some very murky waters, especially when it comes to Spanish guitars. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors out there and it doesn't all come from Conde.

Granted, a lot of this is just my opinion but I've seen first hand how it all works so I'm not nearly as gullible as some guitarists seem to be when it comes to this stuff.
You folks can read into this whatever you choose but in this particular case I'm not buying the story.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 14 2013 19:36:42
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyingsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

quote:

Honestly I thought the original price was quite out of sorts for a factory build


I appreciate your honesty but I'm not sure what you mean by "Factory build."



What would you call it? A shop build? An outsource build? Per you it was outsourced to the Adalid shop for building. I wasn't meaning it in a condescending way or like a giant manufacturer in China (i.e. Yamaha) built it. I consider Sanchis Lopez, Carrillo, etc. factory builds too which this is right in line with per the info given though I realize you had a hand in it in the very end.



I would call it a factory build, as Manuel should be turning the building process over to his master builders after he trains them for this particular model..

But these 4 guitars that are already built have a great amount of money invested in them as a prerequisite to the building of this model.

Perhaps you could think of this like the beginning of the computer age when things started out at higher prices, and the only recourse might be that it would be considered a collectors dream, as a small department in the over-all manufacturing scheme that had a part in it.

So, these 4 guitars are presented, as unique, with that in mind. Manuel's and my hands, together, will most likely not have a part in the future models.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 14 2013 20:07:19
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega

quote:

Spanish guitar factories, like Adalid's Esteve operation, exist to make money. Guitar making is a business. They don't look at guitars as high art. A guitar is just another "unit".


Charles, this is something I can agree on, in principle, but the facts are different in this case.

I was approached by a sales agent for a factory, to add my fine-tuning concept to a model that we had discussed earlier. The factory turned out to be Adalid's and this is where it gets interesting.

My sales agent told me that a factory owner was set for life with his regular production of guitars and that the owner was motivated to build a higher quality instrument to satisfy his personal interest toward a higher art. So, my agent suggested that I do what I could to assist the owner toward this endeavor, if possible.

I fine tuned 4 of Manuel's guitars that he and his son personally built. Everyone who has played the guitars think highly of them. This is my contribution to the arts and I stand on these 4 guitars as proof that my fine-tuning works.

You may be well traveled but don't knock the fact that I'm well trained in what I do. You want to be noticed on this thread, that's fine, but be fair in your assessment of the topic at hand.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 14 2013 20:41:33

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

Tom,
I have no interest in nor reason for wanting to be "noticed". I'll leave that all for you.

The guitars you're referring to may well be very good instruments but I very seriously doubt that they were actually constructed personally by Manuel Adalid and/or his son.

Again, just my opinion and I will gladly and humbly stand corrected if proven wrong.

I'm just calling it as I see it. I won't waste any more bandwidth on the subject.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 14 2013 20:48:36
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

Tom,
I have no interest in nor reason for wanting to be "noticed". I'll leave that all for you.

I'm just calling it as I see it. I won't waste any more bandwidth on the subject.


You are always welcome to give your opinion, and all I ask is that you be fair in your assessment of the topic at hand, but right now, you seem to be quick to judge without first testing the product.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 14 2013 21:06:36
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega

quote:


I've been around the block more than a few times with this guitar stuff and I'm quite familiar with the ins and outs of the Spanish guitar business. I've visited numerous individual maker's shops, larger multi-person workshops, guitar factories and wood dealers in Spain which I don't believe Tom has done to any real extent


You say you have visited many shops. Does this mean that you have had a part or connection with any of these shops that would be advantageous to them?

If so, then that would be a good thing.

How many times does it take to go around the block before you get worn out?

But it's true, I haven't been to many shops or read a bunch of information about them to be able to talk much about it. I just build guitars.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2013 0:03:58
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega

quote:

Take a look at Ron Fernandez' website. www.fernandezmusic.com
He's been importing Esteve/Adalid guitars for a long time. He says that Adalid is the boss man but mentions nothing about him actually making any guitars himself.


Does this mean that Adalid doesn't build guitars? Of course not, but it could mean that Manuel wasn't stirred in his emotions to build guitars at a inexpensive price.

At least, not until my fine tuning information was presented to him and could have had a part in compelling him to find out what was going on. And it's obvious that He can build good guitars... I think he did a wonderful job of building this current model that I fine-tuned.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2013 0:16:07
 
estebanana

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2013 0:49:54
 
estebanana

Posts: 9466
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega

quote:

This whole ridiculous scenario is just too convoluted and bizarre to be believed.

I can't help but shake my head in amazement at the amount of naivete exhibited on this forum.


Please, you mean you don't like guitars made with wood that was farted on by dinosaurs ?

The naivete of the entire world is startling me these days. Condensation trails become 'chemtrails', the biblical Adam lived during the Jurassic period, the moon landings were staged in a hangar. Science gets thrown out the window when it is convenient to blame the government for something, but if a kid gets sick they get rushed to the hospital because modern medicine is scientific.

Now I hear guitar making can't exist unless it is backed by an empirically based system of engineering references. Let me see, the Amati family began making the violin in the early 16th century long before the modern principles of engineering were discovered, yet the violin has lasted as one of the finest examples of vernacular engineering in history, in any discipline.
People believe what they want to believe because it is easier for them to apply science when it suits them and discard it when it hinders their ability to change their mind.

Guitars are too complicated to write a mathematical formula to explain every nuance of how they function, yet at the same time they can be engineered through trial and error by successive generations of builders. As paradoxes go this concept of the guitar being a thing that is scientific and non scientific at the same time is not one of the more difficult paradoxes to understand. The violin family of instruments evolved over time by trial and error and the guitar is certainly going through the same thing. The flamenco guitar is really a lot like the violin in that it has pretty much maxed out in what it can do and what it needs to do. If flamenco changes and calls for a new instrument then one will be developed, but so far the one we have right now works pretty well. Still there is room for improvement, a further understanding of what makes it work. If Tom's work is part of the bigger historical trajectory of trial and error, and that's how I see it, then so be it. In an overview of the history of how the guitar developed and continues to develop where does Tom's work fit in? Will his ideas stick and become a regular part of guitar making or will he be a historical anomaly?

I like Tom, I had difficulty in the beginning, but he's made a lot of good guitars and he is not a vanity builder. He makes guitars that he wants to go to players. I've never heard Tom talk about how he wants his guitars to go into collections, or be decorative fodder for guys who fetishize the guitar, but never really understand it profoundly. I believe Tom understands the guitar profoundly, but I don't have agree with how he gets his results. However that does not matter, it will all wash out as history sorts things over the next ten decades. Long after I'm gone.

For now maybe Tom's marketing is annoying, it sometimes annoys me, but then again Mc Donalds marketing annoys me and so does Monsanto's marketing. Tom seems a lot less annoying than Monsanto and I can actually give my seal of approval on his profound product, which I could never say about Monsanto. Tomas seems to want to leave a legacy to guitar making, history will sort that out for us if we wait. We look at 17th and 18th century Italian violins now and recognize them as the apex of the craft, we may be too close to guitar making to make sense of all the opinions we live with.

Regarding marketing, P.T. Barnum said: "There's a sucker born every minute."

As Mr. Spock says: Tom, Live long and Prosper. You make nice guitars. Don't get too bogged down in this marketing stuff, you have better things to do.

HappY summer vacation! Everyone one go to the beach!

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2013 4:17:04
 
avimuno

 

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I like Tom, I had difficulty in the beginning, but he's made a lot of good guitars and he is not a vanity builder. He makes guitars that he wants to go to players. I've never heard Tom talk about how he wants his guitars to go into collections, or be decorative fodder for guys who fetishize the guitar, but never really understand it profoundly. I believe Tom understands the guitar profoundly, but I don't have agree with how he gets his results. However that does not matter, it will all wash out as history sorts things over the next ten decades. Long after I'm gone.

For now maybe Tom's marketing is annoying, it sometimes annoys me, but then again Mc Donalds marketing annoys me and so does Monsanto's marketing. Tom seems a lot less annoying than Monsanto and I can actually give my seal of approval on his profound product, which I could never say about Monsanto. Tomas seems to want to leave a legacy to guitar making, history will sort that out for us if we wait. We look at 17th and 18th century Italian violins now and recognize them as the apex of the craft, we may be too close to guitar making to make sense of all the opinions we live with.

Regarding marketing, P.T. Barnum said: "There's a sucker born every minute."

As Mr. Spock says: Tom, Live long and Prosper. You make nice guitars. Don't get too bogged down in this marketing stuff, you have better things to do.

HappY summer vacation! Everyone one go to the beach!



Very wise words as usual... I am fortunate enough to own one of Tom's guitars and there's nothing bad I will ever say about his work... it's up there with the best of them, baring in mind that my guitar was entirely built by him.

Tom must have his reasons for making this deal. And Adalid will definitely built a top notch guitar, which will allow Tom to work his magic on, with his fine-tuning skills. Whether the fine-tuning justifies such an increase in price is up to the judgement of the buyer, as with all guitars, you really should try this instrument before judging it. Let's not forget that Tom is also tied to the dealer selling that guitar, and that the said dealer seems to be applying a huge markup based on Tom being famous for his Reyes copies.

It took me a little time to get used to my Balckshear Reyes, but it's the only guitar I have now, having sold both my Condes, my Raya Pardo, my Kenny Hill, my Bernal and my Sanchis.

It's all the guitar I need, it does everything I need it to do and it has a very unique voice... very sweet and expressive, with trebles I have only heard on a Reyes I played at Postigo's... there's a sort of inexplicable "hollowness" (this is an analogy but by hollowness I mean that difference you can hear between a Les Paul and a 335) and natural reverb to the sound, yet it's thick and meaty... it really has to be experienced. It is also "pleasingly aggressive" when pushed, not harsh at all... and this guitar can take a serious pushing. It's also very loud. These are all the characteristics of the Reyes design, and Tom has nailed them. This design works for the people who like a very rich sounding flamenco guitar, and will not suit the people after a dry sounding one. I am of course not a concert guitarist and this is only my subjective appreciation, but I have owned and played a few very expensive instruments and Tom's guitars are in no way inferior (in terms of building quality, playability, feel and sound - the pulsation is also very "alive", if that makes sense) to DeVoe, Barba or even Reyes. Like all great builders, Tom's guitars are alive and have a strong personality.

The issue around him fine-tuning a "factory" guitar and charging a concert-level price for it is a real one, but again, this guitar should be played before it is judged. And at the end of the day, this is a free market and if Tom feels like he wants to do things this way, then he is free to do so... and if the buyer feels that he does not want to buy a guitar made like that, then he is also free not to buy it, nobody is putting a knife at anyone's throat to force them into doing what they do not want to here. Ricardo has raised the right issue in asking whether Tom's fine-tuning actually makes a difference or not... the answer will depend on one's personal appreciations. I know what my answer to this question is, but I do not claim it to be a universal truth.

Happy summer vacation to you too sir! (although it's winter here in the southern hemisphere)! I am actually writing this post from the beach... here's a picture of my view!

Saludos!



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2013 5:45:54
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

What a place, Avi!
Should you ever become tired of it, craving for littered landscapes, be my guest.
-

After experiencing what batch of guitars a famous brand had presented for its anniversary years ago ( specimens on estudio level for 18 000 €!), totally off any price / quality ratio, I started questioning its firmly established reputation and increasingly found more and more feedback among fellow players. And the brands image seems not the same anymore, respectively judging from sound samples I heard since then they changed something in the shop for better production while moving the price level towards reasonable in the same time.

I only mention this to indicate how I view irrational marketing.
Pretty different from guitars that sound like Tom´s.
Here things are in the opposite. Little fame / image and impressive performance.
These will be obtained by people who do not want to go home without that playability and response of the instrument.
And when that happens then you might still care about who was involved in production, but much less than before you got infected.
Experienced Conde customers don´t expect some old masters at the bench either, do they.

If Tom´s future cooperation can keep up the characteristics like apparently with the four first guitars I guess there will be some considerable niche ready to be conquered. And the minute that empirics may beat prestige I can see some famous brands running for their money.

May only Mr. Adalid become as versed with the final touch like Tom.
- Otherwise Tom could possibly be spending some months per year in Spain (?)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2013 9:07:06
 
avimuno

 

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

What a place, Avi!
Should you ever become tired of it, craving for littered landscapes, be my guest.


Ruphus, this is home, where I get to only spend my holidays unfortunately... My view in Paris is not quite like that... but I'm not complaining, it's a wonderful city!

Here's a little video I've been meaning to upload for a while now. I'm playing my Blackshear on it... the Zoom Q3HD gets a decent sound quality for such a simple and small unit, but the guitar sounds better than that in reality... some of the richness and complexity of the tone is missing. But you get a good idea of how the "beast" sounds like... bearing in mind that a video is no substitute for knowing how a guitar feels in your hands.

This is number 1 out of the 4 Reyes blanca Tom has made. It's the exact guitar he talks about on his website... apologies for the bad playing, I really need to start practicing properly again (as you can guess from the background, I've gone back to playing mostly electric in the past few months and my flamenco skills are suffering from it)! :-P

I'll post another video of me playing rasgeados and alzapuas so that you get a better idea of how the guitar reacts under "normal flamenco conditions"!

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2013 10:41:58
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana

My earlier comments on Tom's prospective collaboration with Manuel Adalid were not meant to criticize his guitars or his marketing. I understand he makes first-rate guitars, and how he markets them is his business. I wish him all the best should the deal with Adalid be consummated

My objection was to the way he publicly announced, via the medium of this forum, a deal that is still being negotiated, laying out his vision of the end result: His name and label being used by Adalid to promote the guitars; his label design; his tuning technique advancing Adalid's luthier skills; etc. It all seemed like public posturing designed to flatter one's self without hearing what Adalid might have in mind, and before the deal is even consummated. I have been involved in quite a few negotiations (albeit of an entirely different nature) in my professional career, and one does not publicly announce details of one's position before an agreement is reached. I think that is good advice regardless of the nature of the negotiations. But that is just my opinion.

Nevertheless, as someone posted above, the proof is in the pudding, and should Tom's deal with Adalid be consummated, I wish Tom all good fortune in this endeavor.

I will take your advice to go to the beach, Stephen. Next week I am spending two weeks on the Outer Banks of North Carolina. Can't think of a better way to wind up the summer.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2013 11:08:45
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

My objection was to the way he publicly announced, via the medium of this forum, a deal that is still being negotiated, laying out his vision of the end result:


Thanks Bill, it seems you might be a lawyer :-)

This is a very relaxed connection with Adalid and I think we are headed for some business arrangement later on. But the ideal here, at present, is to come together for a soft opening and test the waters with what has already been produced before we agree on any more product.

Manuel feels that he must be more connected with the fine-tuning phase before he can call his side of the factory into full operation, otherwise, like its been said, I might wind up in Spain for a good part of the year.

And although my wife would think it a good vacation, I'm not so sure I could last any length of time without my daily routines at home.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2013 13:22:57
 
estebanana

Posts: 9466
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

Manuel feels that he must be more connected with the fine-tuning phase before he can call his side of the factory into full operation, otherwise, like its been said, I might wind up in Spain for a good part of the year.

And although my wife would think it a good vacation, I'm not so sure I could last any length of time without my daily routines at home.


Take your wife to Spain, for heaven sake. Trust me, you'll make new routines or figure out how to do your same ritual there.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2013 19:58:49
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

Avi,

The darn connection despite of several trials wouldn´t let me get past 1:15, but the typical properties of Tom´s guitars were clearly there. ( Good touch, and nice `celtic palo´, besides!)

Some day in the early nineties or so I zapped into a jazz singer presented with her band on Jay Leno´s show. A black-haired beauty who had an incredibly pristine and full voice right on top of her tongue. You know, like when the tone gets released right away without perceivable preparation through air stream anywhere in the throat.
( I still regret to have not realized the name of that artist. Her voice really was phenomenal.)

Similar it seems with very fine guitars. They are so fast for one and rich of shades in the same time.

In the complex category ( as in opposite to "dry") Tom´s guitars stick out with heaps of partials that seem to all sit precisely where they belong. Making it hard for you to sound out of tune anyway, and certainly hard to put them back on the stand too soon.
-

Tom,

Please stay in good health for many years to come.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2013 20:03:32
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ruphus

Thanks guys, and Stephen you are a consummate builder in your own right. How is the trip to Japan going?

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 15 2013 21:12:23
 
avimuno

 

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Good touch, and nice `celtic palo´, besides!


Gracias amigo!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2013 14:08:30
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

De nada! :O)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2013 18:28:57

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

I know that I said that I was done with this thread but I just can't resist.

Go to Tom's "sales agent's" website www.savageclassical.com and read the description of the flamenco model being discussed here.
In the first sentence of the description he states that Blackshear built the guitar. Then, in the very next sentence, he says that Tom commissioned the guitar from a famous Spanish maker who we now know is the Esteve operation. The label makes no mention of the Esteve factory or of Manuel Adalid.
And how about the tuners? The website says they are "Fusteros-Fleta Edition-built exclusively for Tom Blackshear". Really??? Fustero went out of business in 2010 and while they may have done some special runs for a few big clients, I hardly think that Tom's operation at the time met this criteria. They did offer different button and roller options but this hardly qualifies as anything "exclusive".

Next, go to the "Manuel Adalid" guitars and read the description for the "Romantica" model. The description babbles on about having examples of Adalid's best work, etc. blah, blah, blah. It then goes on to say that this fine example of Adalid's "best work" was made by Juan Hernandez which accounts for it's somewhat higher price than the "Lacote" model. Huh? I thought that Adalid was "El Guitarrero Grande". The label, however, bears the name and signature of Adalid, not Hernandez.
Are we confused yet?

This website puts even GSI to shame in the flowery drivel description department.

I can't help but wonder how anyone is making any money from this Esteve/Blackshear venture even if the guitars sold for the full initial asking price. Beyond whatever the factory is charging we have guitars being shipped from Spain to Texas (think shipping costs, customs duty, brokerage fees, insurance etc.) and then from Texas to Long Island NY, from Long Island to God knows where for "final polishing" or whatever, back again to Long Island and the shipping to the final consumer and a "premium" case is included in the advertised price. And these are supposedly individually hand made guitars? Really?
It seems like a lot to go through for relatively little gain.

Does anyone else sense a bit of a snowjob here?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2013 14:18:21
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

I know that I said that I was done with this thread but I just can't resist.


Well, I guess I should forgive you for going back on your word :-)

quote:

Go to Tom's "sales agent's" website www.savageclassical.com and read the description of the flamenco model being discussed here.
In the first sentence of the description he states that Blackshear built the guitar.


Charles, if you wanted to be fair you would admit that Rich cleared that up in the same paragraph.

quote:

Then, in the very next sentence, he says that Tom commissioned the guitar from a famous Spanish maker who we now know is the Esteve operation.


Now you're talking ;-)

quote:

The label makes no mention of the Esteve factory or of Manuel Adalid.


I wrote the primary labels "Made in Spain" at the top, preceding a custom label that will follow on the other guitars that mention Manuel's name as the builder.

quote:

And how about the tuners? The website says they are "Fusteros-Fleta Edition-built exclusively for Tom Blackshear". Really??? Fustero went out of business in 2010 and while they may have done some special runs for a few big clients, I hardly think that Tom's operation at the time met this criteria. They did offer different button and roller options but this hardly qualifies as anything "exclusive".


Fustero is still making a small amount for Adalid and the custom machines that I ordered in the past from Ron Fernandez are still available to Manuel to use on my guitar design if the customer chooses to pay the price. They are now pretty expensive. Seems to me, Charles that if you knew so much about Adalid's production that you would have known about the Fustero machines.

quote:

Next, go to the "Manuel Adalid" guitars and read the description for the "Romantica" model. The description babbles on about having examples of Adalid's best work, etc. blah, blah, blah. It then goes on to say that this fine example of Adalid's "best work" was made by Juan Hernandez which accounts for it's somewhat higher price than the "Lacote" model. Huh? I thought that Adalid was "El Grande Guitarrero". The label, however, bears the name and signature of Adalid, not Hernandez.
Are we confused yet?


I think this information that you provide should be given to Rich Sayage, asking him about his advertising, rather than giving it over a chat list which does nothing for correction at the source, and which has nothing to do with my business association with Manuel.

Manuel and I will have a sit down business conference when he comes in September, and we will talk about some of the minor facets, advertising, etc, about our deal with the Blackshear-Adalid guitars.

quote:

This website puts even GSI to shame in the flowery drivel description department.


Again, you should make comment to Savage Music.

quote:

I can't help but wonder how anyone is making any money from this Esteve/Blackshear venture even if the guitars sold for the full initial asking price. Here we have guitars being shipped from Spain to Texas (think shipping costs, customs duty, brokerage fees, insurance etc.) and then from Texas to Long Island NY, from Long Island to God knows where for "final polishing" or whatever, back again to Long Island and the shipping to the final consumer and a "premium" case is included in the advertised price. And these are supposedly individually hand made guitars? Really?
Does anyone else sense a bit of a snowjob here?



Very good point for some of this, and this is what we are trying to work out, not only on pricing the instruments but how they will be manufactured by the Adalid department with fine tuning.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2013 19:04:51

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

Oh, OK, so now it's the "Adalid department" and not Adalid himself. Gotcha.

Clear as mud.

I really don't know all that much about Adalid's operation but I get the impression that you don't either.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2013 19:19:34
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

Oh, OK, so now it's the "Adalid department" and not Adalid himself. Gotcha.

Clear as mud.

I really don't know all that much about Adalid's operation but I get the impression that you don't either.



You are right about that, as I didn't know his name until recently, but through all of this initial presentation of the two guitars to the public, you are helping with the advertising, perhaps as fodder right now, but nevertheless you are helping with it :-)

Be well my friend.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2013 19:28:18
 
SavageClassicalGuitar

 

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Joined: Aug. 19 2013
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 20 2013 1:58:28
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 19 2013 4:33:46

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

Good grief!

So.....Blackshear built the guitars but he didn't really build them. Adalid built them but he really didn't build them either. A few other guys in the factory did.
That would include the bridge guy and the neck guy and, hopefully, the top guy and the back guy.

275-300 Euros for a guitar top? That must be some of that magic wood that some people around here like to talk about. Couple that stuff up with some of that special cypress salvaged from the roof beams of Boabdil's private outhouse at The Alhambra and you'd really have something!

Have you ever sold used cars?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 19 2013 9:48:23
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega

Have you ever sold used cars?

Actually no, but I had a dream last night about used cars and how a company sold a car with a defect, not a bad one, but just a defect, and then when it was time for the customer to come back and trade for another car, the company added the defect against the customer's trade in value. And then you've got wholesale to retail, and new, as opposed to used and where does it end?

The spruce tops were from Fuchs in Germany and I suppose they were expensive, as I bought ten fairly good, what should have been top grade but more medium with the exception of one top that stood out as top of the line, no pun intended :-)

These tops cost me well over a hundred dollars plus landing cost. Manuel's tops are nicer in appearance but not that they can be managed any better for tone, as I have learned how to adjust tops as rough as fence post material for good tone, if necessary ;-)

So, I feel Rich was implying that Manuel wouldn't take several hundred Euros for the tops he is putting into the current Blackshear design. After all, he is trying to make a good first impression to establish this model in the marketplace.

So, it appears that Rich is willing to make a deal to move these costly prototype guitars so that he can establish a fluid sales production at a more affordable price. That shows Manuel and me that we are considered for more guitars in the future. And it assures me that Rich is a team player.

Yes, these prototype guitars cost us a lot of money but thanks to Rich for considering the bigger picture, with guitars priced at a more affordable rate.

So, does this mean that we will be pushed into having to bring down the quality? Not if I have anything to say about it.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 19 2013 11:26:17
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to SavageClassicalGuitar

quote:

ORIGINAL: SavageClassicalGuitar
This is a beautiful classical guitar with that bold in your face Spanish characteristic that amazes you until you hear that Tom Blackshear built it. Actually, Tom did not build the guitar, but has commissioned this guitar from a famous builder in Spain thru a collaborative effort of modeling and testing with an experienced concert player as the tester for these incredible guitars.


Why even use the first sentence in this description if transparency is what you are after? It contradicts the later.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 19 2013 12:26:16
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