RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

The US dollar is practically valueless and getting less everyday.

Your statement that the US dollar is practically valueless and getting less everyday would certainly surprise any reputable economist. Please provide the evidence to substantiate your claim. What is the basis for your claim?

Who does the shopping, your wife? My wife hasn't had a raise in over 5 years and yet the food items for our family still keep going up...

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 17:55:51

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Congratulations for giving the fine tuning a try. Obviously, you have found that things can be improved by this method of tuning fan braces.

I guess people over here are saying that guitars that were handmade are already supposed to be perfect as a whole and thats why they dont support the method.

Factory made guitars are very "standard". On this particular guitar, the 7 fan braces where symmetric, all with the same width and height only with varying lenghts (obviously). The 2 closing struts were also symmetric.

In fact I find that this guitar was well built and the plan must be good because it was sounding good even before I sanded it.

The thing is that I felt that the guitar was very near the Hermanos Sanchis sound character that I enjoy (and is all over youtube) but the bass needed to be toned down a bit (less mud and roundedness I guess) and the mids needed to come upfront a bit too.

Now the bass is to my taste, its like the guitar as two fifth strings if you know what I mean.. I feel I got more treble too and I had already enough but now I can even use a G string from a extra hard tension set and it is sounding very bright, no tubiness at all. Also the top vibrates more like if it is less stiff now, everything sounds more articulate even with old strings on.

I havent tried with new strings yet but a friend of mine who never heard flamenco just heard me play it and he said that the playing was nice but he wouldnt be able to listen to it for a long period because of the agressive raspy sound. The guitar was happy with his comment.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 18:14:36

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Who does the shopping, your wife? My wife hasn't had a raise in over 5 years and yet the food items for our family still keep going up...

The dollar loses value during inflationary periods. The inflation rate for April 2013 was just 1.10 percent, and for the past several years, with the Fed intervention, it has averaged less than 2 percent. This has been the longest period of sustained low inflation in my lifetime. (I am 70 years old.) Food and energy costs are, and always have been, very volatile and are generally not counted in the Core Consumer Price Index. While food is more expensive, overall, prices have remained steady, and the dollar most definitely is not "practically valueless," particularly when you consider its exchange rate with European and other currencies.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 18:17:00

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to BarkellWH)

The point is that I finally had to raise my prices due to the economy going past my ability to keep with it.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 18:33:28

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

The thing is that I felt that the guitar was very near the Hermanos Sanchis sound character that I enjoy (and is all over youtube) but the bass needed to be toned down a bit (less mud and roundedness I guess) and the mids needed to come upfront a bit too.

so you made a conde out of your guitar

, thats more or less the difference of most sanchis and conde. condes tend to have stronger mids and less bassy basses than sanchis imo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 18:35:25

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

Now the bass is to my taste, its like the guitar as two fifth strings if you know what I mean.

If you want to make the bass deeper without causing it to boom, but deeper and tight, then sand a little off the top of the outside bass strut, making it a little thinner on top near the sound hole. Try for a long slight taper making it thinner in height, closer to the sound hole. Don't thin it too much as it will cause the 6th string to drop off too much.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 18:40:59

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

The point is that I finally had to raise my prices due to the economy going past my ability to keep with it.

Got it, Tom. It's just that calling the dollar "practically valueless" seemed a bit excessive to me.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 18:50:20

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to BarkellWH)

This is taken from the old Spanish idiom, of the frets growing rather than the finger board shrinking

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 19:22:36

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Arash)

quote:

so you made a conde out of your guitar , thats more or less the difference of most sanchis and conde. condes tend to have stronger mids and less bassy basses than sanchis imo.

Nah, I didnt get the stronger mids (although I would like that) but now my guitar doesnt sound as scooped as it sounded before, its way more balanced now and feels better to play, the response changed.

quote:

If you want to make the bass deeper without causing it to boom, but deeper and tight, then sand a little off the top of the outside bass strut, making it a little thinner on top near the sound hole. Try for a long slight taper making it thinner in height, closer to the sound hole. Don't thin it too much as it will cause the 6th string to drop off too much.

I think Iam not quite picturing that and maybe its wise not to go inside again... oh, the temptation

I dont like bass at all unless Iam playing bass. You know, Iam a stratocaster guy, not a Les Pauler if that makes sense.

The only thing I kind of miss is the "throaty mids" that Condes (and the Sanchis too) usually have.

But right now Iam near that sound that VA gets when he plays a strong powerchord even with rasgueo, that open percussive sound that you also get from a strat with mild overdrive before the amp.

I love the strats single coil spank, it sounds like "clank clank" which for me is the "plunkety plunk" of flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 19:25:50

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

So,

can i have guitar, designed by Conde, built by Sanchis, spat in to the soundhole by Anders with a Manuel Reyes Padre Label, then fine tuned by Blackshear, finally signed by Paco for $3500 including case and free shipping or not?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 19:37:16

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

On the last day of the solea challenge I recorded my thing. Here's the beggining of it unprocessed (no reverb, eq, saturation) and then the same thing recorded right now in almost the same conditions (the mic might not be in the exact same spot but it's an omni cap so it doesnt make as much difference as if I was using a cardioid).

Anyways, Iam pretty sure I nailed the same distance as in the original recording.

The A string winding is broken in two places so it gives a strange buzz. It doesnt affect the overall EQ thing that Iam trying to compare here, mainly the bass and openness.

You might even prefer the original, feel free to comment

Before & After Sanding

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 20:12:02

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Arash)

quote:

can i have guitar, designed by Conde, built by Sanchis, spat in to the soundhole by Anders with a Manuel Reyes Padre Label, then fine tuned by Blackshear, finally signed by Paco for $3500 including case and free shipping or not?

I can offer you a Rui Martins sanding service. I can do it on furniture too.

All I need is to remember to protect my nails because now they're all dented from the sanding I did inside the guitar.. I always forget that sandpaper is evil.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 20:16:39

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

On the last day of the solea challenge I recorded my thing. Here's the beggining of it unprocessed (no reverb, eq, saturation) and then the same thing recorded right now in almost the same conditions (the mic might not be in the exact same spot but it's an omni cap so it doesnt make as much difference as if I was using a cardioid).

Anyways, Iam pretty sure I nailed the same distance as in the original recording.

The A string winding is broken in two places so it gives a strange buzz. It doesnt affect the overall EQ thing that Iam trying to compare here, mainly the bass and openness.

You might even prefer the original, feel free to comment

Before & After Sanding

hmm, i just heard it (one time with good speakers and one time with simple laptop speakers) and honestly i prefer the first sound. Don't know why. It sounds more balanced. The second sound is brighter and less bassy but somehow something is missing, hard to describe. But really hard to say with just a recording.
Maybe if you would hear the guitar "live", it would be different.
Just being honest here.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 20:22:08

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Arash)

Yeah, the main difference is that I practically only have the index fingernail right now. I suspect that the gain in the mixer wasnt the same or maybe the original file was normalized but that's not the point. You can smell the difference anyway lol

I forgot that the basses are different, these are lower tension (savarez red card) than the ones on the original recording but I still have those basses and might swap them in. I guarantee that even with the other basses there was a big difference especially on the bass (I swaped them recently just to finish killing them, I dont tie the strings at the bridge so it is a fairly quick swap).

EDIT: You know when you're playing a guitar and no matter how hard you bang on it (rasgueados and all that) you always feel that the guitar just isnt giving you back all the "effort" you're putting in? ...and that feeling of "boooom, round low end and muddy 6th string"?

To sum this up, those are the things that went away. Also, the guitar caught some sun and now it is of a brighter orange. Even the grain looks more defined and alive... no joking

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 20:38:16

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I had to listen to it a few times but what I think might be different is that the middle register flattened out a little, not so rounded, and the trebles sounded a little higher frequency with a little more snap with the rasgeado.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 22:07:54

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Arash)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

So,

can i have guitar, designed by Conde, built by Sanchis, spat in to the soundhole by Anders with a Manuel Reyes Padre Label, then fine tuned by Blackshear, finally signed by Paco for $3500 including case and free shipping or not?

I just got a phone call from my sales agent and he recently spoke with Juan Miguel Gonzales http://www.juanmiguelgonzalez.com/en/guitars.html who builds for Tomatito, the flamenco guitarist.

Sr. Gonzales told my sales agent that he tunes his guitars outside and inside, and after they are built and finished, he goes through the sound hole and tweaks the fan braces to balance out the voicing and articulation, and that this is a well kept secret among the great Spanish builders who would care not to have their fine tuning techniques known.

There you have it folks, this is my confirmation, and my sales agent is suggesting that I work more for a fee rather than give it away.

Here is a gallery including a picture of Tomatito playing one of his guitars http://www.juanmiguelgonzalez.com/en/gallery.html

It was mentioned that Sr. Gonzales also makes 12,000 euro guitars.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 22:25:19

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

Yeah, the main difference is that I practically only have the index fingernail right now. I suspect that the gain in the mixer wasnt the same or maybe the original file was normalized but that's not the point. You can smell the difference anyway lol

I forgot that the basses are different, these are lower tension (savarez red card) than the ones on the original recording but I still have those basses and might swap them in. I guarantee that even with the other basses there was a big difference especially on the bass (I swaped them recently just to finish killing them, I dont tie the strings at the bridge so it is a fairly quick swap).

EDIT: You know when you're playing a guitar and no matter how hard you bang on it (rasgueados and all that) you always feel that the guitar just isnt giving you back all the "effort" you're putting in? ...and that feeling of "boooom, round low end and muddy 6th string"?

To sum this up, those are the things that went away. Also, the guitar caught some sun and now it is of a brighter orange. Even the grain looks more defined and alive... no joking

One must definately hear it with same recording settings, etc. or as i said even better live, otherwise its really hard to say something.
But if you feel like you got closer to what you seek soundwise, thats all that matters.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 22:30:19

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Arash)

quote:

One must definately hear it with same recording settings, etc. or as i said even better live, otherwise its really hard to say something.
But if you feel like you got closer to what you seek soundwise, thats all that matters.

No doubt about that. More than the sound changing was the playability, I always felt it was too stiff but was afraid sand it and lose the great highs the guitar had from the beggining.

Sanding those 5 braces and changing the nut to a wider string spacing were great enhancements to my enjoyment of the instrument. Maybe tommorrow I'll switch the bass strings to the ones on the original recording, the ones that I have on right now have less tension so the action is lower too.. I need to cut the variables to make a better comparison.

The thing that happened with the other guitar that got sanded past the point was a sluggish feeling... the guitar got "slow", numb... the midrange increased but the guitar felt like the top was soaked in water lol Another funny thing was the amount of bass that went away when I reshaped the neck. It now looks and feels like an Ibanez RG neck, the guitar has a truss rod so I wasnt worried about warping. The truss rod eventually got worned out but I had lots of fun with that guitar, not really playing but it was fun nontheless.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 23:33:43

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Another idea that pictures the thing I was trying to take away from the sound of the guitar..

You know that "bonk" dull sound you get (on some guitars, especially with high tension string) if you do some strong rasgueos? That initial bassy "bonk" seems to dominate especially if you do the rasgueo with a bit more nail than just the tip.

Also I never used thick G strings because they sounded like "thud thud". My conclusion is that the "thud" sound must be bass even though the fundamental frequency of the notes on that string is treble. By taking out bass from the overall sound of the guitar, maybe that's what brought out the G string (Iam using extra hight tension G now) instead of an increase in treble.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 18 2013 23:50:39

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Sr. Martins)

The G string is supposed to drop off a little so that it will not override the 1st and 2nd strings. The idea is for all three strings to blend better with the emphasis for the third string to allow the harmonic release of the first and second string.

I use certain key systems-rhythms when playing the guitar to arrive at total harmony. This takes awhile to learn but it has its rewards.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 19 2013 1:13:12

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Just curious, how does one fine tune the inside of a completed guitar? Do you use a mirror and a piece of sand paper on an extender of some sort? Or do you have your whole hand inside the guitar and just feel it out?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2013 17:13:43

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5)

My "sanding thing" is done with my arm inside the guitar... just because I can

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2013 18:19:52

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyingsea

Just curious, how does one fine tune the inside of a completed guitar? Do you use a mirror and a piece of sand paper on an extender of some sort? Or do you have your whole hand inside the guitar and just feel it out?

I open up the strings at concert pitch, at the 12th fret, not stretching the strings over the edge of the fingerboard, by using a small jig, and then squeeze my left hand through the strings to go instead the guitar and fine tune certain areas that need to be voiced and articulated for better right and left hand action. This is a learned intuitive skill that has taken me about 30 years of practice.

Sometimes I will use a flat or molded stick with sandpaper on it or just a piece of sticky sand paper on my finger to polish certain areas. And I might add that very few guitars need much adjustment, in fact, most of them are fine tuned with very little work to make a difference in the voice and feel of the instrument.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2013 19:06:44

VICTOR1

Posts: 50
Joined: Jan. 1 2013

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to gj Michelob)

HI TOM
who builds manuel reyes hijo ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 6:32:40

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to VICTOR1)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VICTOR1

HI TOM
who builds manuel reyes hijo ?

The son of Manuel Reyes who learned the craft from his father, Manuel Reyes Sr. And although Manuel Sr. has retired, I think he still supervises in his shop on occasion.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 16:23:08

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

This is the guitar I've been working on for the past 4 months. Its almost finished. I might be able to load the sound when I find out how to do it.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 23 2013 2:23:13

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

The classical guitar went to Savage Music store in Bay Shore New York and is for sale, $15,000 US. It turned out well.

I just found out that the Spanish Factory that is building my design is in Valencia, and owned by Manuel Adalid. Manuel is coming to San Antonio, Texas this September to learn my fine-tuning method for his guitars, especially the design he is building for me.

These guitars are about half the price of my own work and have good quality. Also, Marlon, Francisco Navarro's son is building quite a nice flamenco guitar that retails for about $900 US I played one this week-end and was quite impressed.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 14:44:44

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

I just found out that the Spanish Factory that is building my design is in Valencia, and owned by Manuel Adalid. Manuel is coming to San Antonio, Texas this September to learn my fine-tuning method for his guitars, especially the design he is building for me.

I didn't think you were at liberty to disclose that per your previous statement? Also strange that you seem to be stating now that you never really knew what factory was doing it? How can one have a factory build a design yet never have known where it was coming from?

Seems like there is nothing stopping him from selling them directly from his shop at that point under a different brand if he so chose to.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 15:28:30

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyingsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

I just found out that the Spanish Factory that is building my design is in Valencia, and owned by Manuel Adalid. Manuel is coming to San Antonio, Texas this September to learn my fine-tuning method for his guitars, especially the design he is building for me.

I didn't think you were at liberty to disclose that per your previous statement? Also strange that you seem to be stating now that you never really knew what factory was doing it? How can one have a factory build a design yet never have known where it was coming from?

Seems like there is nothing stopping him from selling them directly from his shop at that point under a different brand if he so chose to.

My sales agent was handling all of the correspondence with the factory, not me, and now that I know the name of the owner, and that he is scheduled to come and take a class from me, I feel comfortable to name him.

His name was kept proprietary before this due to the agents preference to keep it to himself until we progressed further along toward a business deal.

The deal is still not totally consummated yet but 4 guitars have been made with my fine-tuning. So, the deal is to teach this technique to Manuel and have him fine tune the guitars in his factory, with my name and label to advertise his product.

The label will read something like:

Modelo 1 A

Tom Blackshear

Luthier

Construido por

Manuel Adalid

San Antonio.....Valencia

Ano.......

And then I'll sign my name across the label to validate it. The Blackshear label will be one label provided for each guitar built.

Manuel's whole idea is to use my person and name to advertise the new model.

And as far as Manuel building this design under a different label...there has to be a certain amount of trust that goes with any business deal.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 16:16:59

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

So, the deal is to teach this technique to Manuel and have him fine tune the guitars in his factory, with my name and label to advertise his product.

I have no idea what your sales agent may have negotiated with Manuel Adalid, but I do know something about Manuel. He is the chief luthier at the House of Esteve. He also produces his own line of flamenco guitars known as the "Viviana." I bought a Manuel Adalid Viviana blanca from Zavaleta's la Casa de Guitarras in Tucson, Arizona in 2009, and it has a great sound. Believe me, whatever deal he may cut with you, Manuel Adalid is well-enough known for his abilities as a luthier and for his fine guitars that he has no need to use anyone's name and label but his own to advertise his product.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 16:41:11