Ligado Pull Off - To Be or Not To Be ... Independent!!!

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junheng

Posts: 47
Joined: May 9 2013

Ligado Pull Off - To Be or Not To Be...

Hi guys. I'm really stuck on this one and would be grateful for your feedback!

I'm now starting to do ligado pull-off in my flamenco and notice that as I, say, pull off my left 3rd (ring) finger, leaving my left 2nd (middle) finger on the string, my left 4th finger (pinkie) moves at the same time in an animated fashion, ie there's a lot of tension in that pinkie!

Before starting ligado I was working faithfully on simple chromatic scales with the left hand with the objective of developing good left-hand posture and independence of the left fingers so that I don't waste energy. And I've been having success with all the fingers of the left hand! When I hold down a string with my left ring (ring) finger and then simply release it, the pinkie does nothing. I can even do ligado hammer-on in this way with independent movement. ... But ... as soon as I try to do a proper *pull off* of the 3rd finger the pinkie goes wild! It's like a diva performing its own show!

Well, my first thought was ... Gotta do something about this! This is wrong!

But, looking at that pinke waggle around made me think ...

Is this goal of independency of the left-hand fingers actually helpful? My knowledge of anatomy of the hand is pretty poor (I will read up on this when I get time), but I reckon that if two fingers have a common muscle and/or tendon then keeping one finger stationary while the other moves is actually *expending* unnecessary energy (since you are firing other muscles to pull in the opposite direction) and, logically speaking, the more energetically efficient thing would be to let them move together naturally.

Disclaimer: Obviously, I am NOT suggesting that this would apply to the right 2nd and 3rd fingers in a rasgueado as there is a clear requirement for all the right fingers in the rasgueado to hit evenly. But in this ligado pull-off situation the left pinkie has no other job to do, so COULD be allowed to move in sympathy with the 3rd finger.

Help!!! David

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 6:21:38

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Ligado Pull Off - To Be or Not T... (in reply to junheng)

quote:

ORIGINAL: junheng

Is this goal of independency of the left-hand fingers actually helpful? My knowledge of anatomy of the hand is pretty poor (I will read up on this when I get time), but I reckon that if two fingers have a common muscle and/or tendon then keeping one finger stationary while the other moves is actually *expending* unnecessary energy (since you are firing other muscles to pull in the opposite direction) and, logically speaking, the more energetically efficient thing would be to let them move together naturally.

You seem to have a pretty good handle on things. I have actually spent quite a lot of time putting sympathetic movements back into my playing. It is true that independance requires tension and that some movements are more expensive/tense than others.

Some things to try. Simply first. Play the pull off with the pinkie instead of the third finger !!!!

Secondly a six step excercise to look at independance and sympathetic movements both under tension and free of tension. Play with the left hand alone.

1. Pick a chord that you would like to be more comfortable with and which utilises all four fingers. Hammer it down aiming for absolute simultaneity of sound, ie each finger landing together with no flams.

2. Leaving the chord down pull off index finger to sound an open string, aim for a 'rest stroke' as much as possible

3. Hammer the same finger back down.

4. Pull off the whole chord (this time like a free stroke) looking for simultaneity of sound and evenness of attack.

5. Hammer down the index finger with the rest of the chord loosely held in the air above the strings.

6. Pull off the index and back to the start.

After SEVERAL repetitions repeat with a different finger.

In order to get real benefits you have to make like it is some kind of minimalist piece that you want to be able to get over to an audience, that might mean moving the chord to a place on the neck where the open strings sound consonant or interesting.

Took me years and years to work that one out so I imagine some clever soul will trash it at a glance.

An exercise like that takes a lot of time so make sure you pick a chord that you really want to be able to reach more easily and I bet after half an hour it will be yours for life. Also you work on loads of things without really having to think about them, such as how to brace the arm when you lose contact with the neck. And of course you are working on independant and sympathetic movements and having to shift between the two rhythmically.Sorry it is so complicated but it kinda has to be to avoid tension problems (ie you could leave the chord down and just work on independence of each finger but that can really bring on RSI as it is way too tense and static)

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 8:04:43

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 17 2013 8:25:52

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 8:25:03

junheng

Posts: 47
Joined: May 9 2013

RE: Ligado Pull Off - To Be or Not T... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Hi guitarbuddha. Thank you so much for those detailed suggestions! I will certainly try them out when I next sit down with my guitar and let you know how it goes.

So it seems you are a fan of sympathetic movement. An interesting question is how one decides what is, in fact, 'sympathetic movement.' It seems to me that when you consciously move one finger and observe a second finger moving in common (involuntarily) you could be 'lead one up the garden path' ...

Movement in common could be due to the two fingers having a common muscle/tendon ... or it could be that they are on completely separate muscle/tendon strands, but that you have 'learned' at the synapse (in the spine) to move them together (ie what is commonly called a 'reflex'). The former would be energetically favoured, but the latter probably not. An interesting thought ...

David

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 9:09:29

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Ligado Pull Off - To Be or Not T... (in reply to junheng)

quote:

ORIGINAL: junheng

But in this ligado pull-off situation the left pinkie has no other job to do, so COULD be allowed to move in sympathy with the 3rd finger.

You seem to have a sensible mind/approach :-)

If it doesn't hinder the action don't worry about it (ever watched the right hand pinky of top level players during picado runs).

Funny that you mentioned synaps. I recently experienced some unexplainable heat explosions deep inside my body. When i asked my doctor if it could be something like leaking energy at synaps level he wondered...what the hell are synaps. Before i studied flamenco i studied animal biology at cell level (histology) so i know a little bit about nerves but not what energy levels are exchanged over that highway. I know some body processes are only possible because the body protect us with proper tools like natural pain killers.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 17:26:18