emotion in music in general and flamenco in particular

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1] 2 3 4 > >>

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

annika.a

Posts: 10
Joined: Jul. 15 2013

emotion in music in general and flam...

I am a MIR researcher and I am working on musical emotion.

Recently I've become interested in how emotions get expressed in different musical genres. The reason is because the features that you can use for genre recognition (loudness, timbre, tempo) are also applicable for emotion recognition.

Flamenco is, definitely, a very emotional musical genre. But are the specific performance manner and timbral characteristics of flamenco making it more capable of expressing certain emotions - nostalgia, passion, - and incapable of expressing others? For instance, sadness in flamenco is always very theatrical.

Of course, you can say flamenco song is sad and Hoche Messe is sad, but those are very different kinds of sadness. I've started to study those things and discovered that emotional terms describe different things in different genres. Listeners of classical music feel "amazement, wonder" when they hear quick, joyful music, while listeners of electronic music feel amazed when they hear dark, awe and fear inspiring music. For listeners of classical music nostalgia is a sorrowful and tragic feeling, and for listeners of rock term "nostalgic" applies more to quite, slow and calm pieces.

For my research I'm still collecting data, so if you want to participate in my study, please do so! You can fill in a questionnaire where you can listen to music (takes around 10 minutes), you will discover some new music and in the end also get feedback about your preferences and your similarity to other people.

In order to take part in the study go to emotify.org.

Thank you and comments welcome!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 13:13:05

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

Check out Leonard Meyer's 1961 classic book Emotion and Meaning in Music. Meyer was head of the music department at the University of Chicago, and also author of Music, the Arts, and Ideas, an amazing, though also rather formidable, overview of where the arts are heading (as seen in the 1960s, though Meyer's overall predictions have proven accurate).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 13:49:06

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

There are a lot of different Palos...
The saddnes of a petenera is much different than the sadnes of a siguiriyas in my oppinion...

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 14:46:44

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

Another half baked academic theis on flamenco

How many have we seen???? how many understand anything?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 15:02:14

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

If you try and measure things which can't be measured then you will end up measuring things which shouldn't be measured.

Already in your post I notice A LOT of nudging and a few blanket statements.

I am no fan of the idea of brain imaging as a panacea but I have to say that this looks like the kind of enquiry which would absolutely benefit from it.

Show a variety of emotive images let the subject internalize their reaction,check which brain areas are activated. Then ask for a single word describing the emotion and again record and compare. This will give you a fairly objective basis to then move onto music.

Randomly sequence a series of musical excerpts in various styles and then repeat as above but for musical examples instead of visual images.

This procedure would have the advantage of removing your all to readily verbalised preconceptions from the equation. I don't mean to be unjustly critical but a survey would have very little value in furnishing any objective results.

Also different cultures have different relationships with the presumed emotional content of musical devices so you would need to repeat the experiment on a variety of varied social and geographic groups.

As for the definition of words you need to be a lot more careful.eg Nostalgic actually means a longing for the past. So any rock music from a listeners past could be labelled nostalgic regardless of tempo tonality or indeed any musical characteristic whatever.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 15:11:56

gslavonic

Posts: 13
Joined: Jul. 12 2013

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

Just listen to Paquera, to La Bernarda y Fernanda, to Terremoto and you will find the most authentic emotion in flamenco. Most of what there is out there these days is painfully contrived and makes me want to crawl under my own skin!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 15:42:47

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Flamenco is certainly music with most sentimiento/emotion in my opinion at least

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

If you try and measure things which can't be measured then you will end up measuring things which shouldn't be measured.

True.
Sort of obvious to real musicians when it comes to measuring connection between music and emotion

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 20:56:57

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

I remember a visit from an American woman, who claimed to be a dancer and was writing a doctorate on jaleo. Apart from the fact that she couldn´t dance, her technique was to count the frequency of jaleo and annotate it.

In my opinion, jaleo is much more difficult to understand and to use than palmas. If you have ever witnessed a juerga gitana you will understand that writing down the jaleo is a laughable concept.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 21:09:28

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

quote:

For instance, sadness in flamenco is always very theatrical.

Nothing theatrical about this, period.
Go to 2:26

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 21:09:45

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

today I spent the whole day playing por solea crying because a girl I love would not fly over to be with me anymore.

Every time I play or sing I connect it to a feeling that justifies the music I play.
When I play por seguiriya for example, I think of all the dead citizens and soldiers I saw lying across the road when I was a kid and my parents worked in a company in Iraq. We flew with special airplanes after Basra was bombed, but to get to the plane we had to drive for some hours by car, which meant seeing all the victims.
It's not all theater...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 22:20:37

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Nothing theatrical about this, period.
Go to 2:26

Dude, we all know how you end up finding these videos. It always starts with something like:

Rocio Marquez

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 16:41:36

clevblue

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 29 2012

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I love Rocio Marquez. (I mean her cante of course)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 17:06:03

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

Lol, I'm still petitioning playboy for a "Girls of Flamenco" issue

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 17:28:45

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Lol, I'm still petitioning playboy for a "Girls of Flamenco" issue

Maybe a Torbe special? "Flamencadas en la carretera"? No?

Ok.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 18:04:57

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

Here's another piece that portrays deep feelings and emotion:

I think the title is hilarious when you look at the video. BTW, I noticed a good voice, who's singing?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 13:52:01

annika.a

Posts: 10
Joined: Jul. 15 2013

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to runner)

I know of this book.) thank you for tip, though!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 14:41:14

annika.a

Posts: 10
Joined: Jul. 15 2013

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

This procedure would have the advantage of removing your all to readily verbalised preconceptions from the equation. I don't mean to be unjustly critical but a survey would have very little value in furnishing any objective results

guitarbuddha, thank you for the tips. The thing is that verbalised definitions of emotion is exactly what I need. I am trying to check for consistency between different people in their understanding of those emotional terms and their perception of music.

Imagine an online radio, where you would search for specific music using emotional terms. You won't ask people to plug in brainscanner in order to search in that system, will you?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 14:45:13

annika.a

Posts: 10
Joined: Jul. 15 2013

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to tele)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Flamenco is certainly music with most sentimiento/emotion in my opinion at least

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

If you try and measure things which can't be measured then you will end up measuring things which shouldn't be measured.

True.
Sort of obvious to real musicians when it comes to measuring connection between music and emotion

I totally agree with you that there is no way to fully explain music with any sort of models.
But I don't agree with the notion that we shouldn't even try.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 14:47:39

annika.a

Posts: 10
Joined: Jul. 15 2013

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to Rmn)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rmn

Every time I play or sing I connect it to a feeling that justifies the music I play.
When I play por seguiriya for example, I think of all the dead citizens and soldiers I saw lying across the road when I was a kid and my parents worked in a company in Iraq.

Rmn, thank you for sharing.

Can I ask you a question? So, you grew up in Iraq (and probably you are not Spanish) and your 'native' musical culture is arabic music? Is this correct? And you got acquianted with flamenco as an adult, still this new musical culture was able to take all the functions of your native one?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 14:54:16

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

quote:

ORIGINAL: annika.a

The thing is that verbalised definitions of emotion is exactly what I need. I am trying to check for consistency between different people in their understanding of those emotional terms and their perception of music.

And that is precisely the consistency that my idea would reveal to the extent that it existed. This was exactly why I had the initial control with images instead of music.

quote:

ORIGINAL: annika.a

Imagine an online radio, where you would search for specific music using emotional terms. You won't ask people to plug in brainscanner in order to search in that system, will you?

No, I wouldn't expect them to whistle and have a magical horse deliver them chocolate bonbons either.

But what I would expect would be for them to be steered towards an extremely narrow pallete of shallow representations of different musics and that somewhere in the background a 'study' had been presented justifying this as a diversion from the actual intent of the site and the expertise and experience of the people involved.

D.
D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 15:27:43

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

quote:

where you would search for specific music using emotional terms

Tagging music beyond rock/metal/world/techno/etc has been a total waste of time.

Maybe thats just me but I'll stay away from any "perscription music" and I'll tell Lenador to punch in the face those who try to tell me what's good for me... besides all the media of course.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 16:18:39

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

Lol, yeah, I'm gunna have to say my idea of sad music isn't the same as my girlfriends. People who REALLY love music are too particular for things like that.

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 17:49:46

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Lol, yeah, I'm gunna have to say my idea of sad music isn't the same as my girlfriends. People who REALLY love music are too particular for things like that.

Tamara Escudero

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 18:07:29

junheng

Posts: 47
Joined: May 9 2013

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

Here's another piece that portrays deep feelings and emotion:

[Habichuela video]

I think the title is hilarious when you look at the video. BTW, I noticed a good voice, who's singing?

Btw ... sorry if this is a thick beginner's question ... but that guitar of Habichuela appears to have a massive body ... Unless I am hallucinating ...

Is that normal? Do flamenco guitars vary that much in body size? Or Is Habichuela just a petit fellow?

Cheers mi dears. David

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2013 15:14:36

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

who's singing?

Tamara Escudero

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2013 16:11:00

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to junheng)

quote:

ORIGINAL: junheng

quote:

Here's another piece that portrays deep feelings and emotion:

[Habichuela video]

I think the title is hilarious when you look at the video. BTW, I noticed a good voice, who's singing?

Btw ... sorry if this is a thick beginner's question ... but that guitar of Habichuela appears to have a massive body ... Unless I am hallucinating ...

Is that normal? Do flamenco guitars vary that much in body size? Or Is Habichuela just a petit fellow?

Cheers mi dears. David

He is a small guy

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2013 16:14:38

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

quote:

Listeners of classical music feel "amazement, wonder" when they hear quick, joyful music, while listeners of electronic music feel amazed when they hear dark, awe and fear inspiring music. For listeners of classical music nostalgia is a sorrowful and tragic feeling, and for listeners of rock term "nostalgic" applies more to quite, slow and calm pieces.

Unfortunately it sounds like your "study" is already biased by your own emotions and associated buzz words. You need to erase the slate and start over and remove yourself from the project in order to have meaningful data. Even terms like "listeners of classical music..." makes no sense. Every human with ears is a "listener" of classical music. Not everybody understands or likes everything they listen to.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2013 16:18:34

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

quote:

Listeners of classical music feel "amazement, wonder" when they hear quick, joyful music, while listeners of electronic music feel amazed when they hear dark, awe and fear inspiring music.

Yeah this is kinda crazy, most electronic music I hear is happy and energetic, verging on cheesy, if electronica was dark and fear based I'd be a much bigger fan lol

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2013 16:41:43

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to annika.a)

IMO scientific research is - on a certain level -valuable in it's own right.
Wether or not the results are "valuable" in a broader sense (i.e. "for mankind", "for industry" etc.) is a different question.
Anybody undertaking the effort of research deserves our respect, and help.
So quit the bashing, give helpful comments or "for ever hold your peace".

On an aside: MIT

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2013 17:16:50

Brendan

Posts: 353
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to edguerin)

I tried to approach the quiz in a positive spirit, but I couldn't do it. I couldn't find my listening-profile among the given categories of listener, nor could I find my emotional responses among the options given. That's not because I'm a magnificently singular case with especially deep and complex responses to music. I am no such thing. I think any adult who cares a little about music will not fit the grid used to set up this study. This is a shame, because the base-question is interesting.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2013 19:29:29