Please help identify this instrument

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itoprover

Posts: 343
Joined: Jan. 3 2006

Please help identify this instrument

I know pics are not so great, but still.. It looks like ramirez headstock however there is no label inside - just the customs stamp from 1978 right on the spot where label supposed to be..

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 17:31:29

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to itoprover)

I'm not an expert but my first impression (even before i saw the headstock) was "late 70ties Ramirez" (color and rosette somehow gave me that impression). You probably will get more nuanced reactions from people who have much more knowledge on the subject. The pegs seems to be a little bid unpolished. Play it and you might be able to judge it's quality.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 17:56:19

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to itoprover)

Did you try to look tot the inner-underside of the soundboard with a mirror? A lot of builders put some stamp or signature there.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 18:31:57

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to itoprover)

The head is rather Ramirez-ish but so are those on the many, many thousands of knockoffs made during the 1970s and 1980s.
The rosette design is most definitely not one used by Ramirez.
A real Ramirez would also have the back braces and the center seam reinforcing strip made from the same wood (Spanish cedar). This one does not.
Ramirez flamencos do not have an angled saddle like this one although the classical models do.
It's not a Ramirez but I doubt that anyone can tell you just what it is from those pictures alone. My first guess would be a Japanese factory guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 18:42:40

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to itoprover)

here is what a ramirez headstock looks like--definitely a different shape. the key thing is whether the guitar plays and sounds great and you paid a good price for it. if the above three criteria were met then enjoy a nice blanca with pegs.

i would concur with charles that it is likely a japanese knock-off. back in the day they were bonkers for ramirez guitars and made a lot of clones. our good buddy jim sherry back in the day was hawking a japanese flamenco he claimed was built by ramirez 3's apprentice. unfortunately jim did not read ramirez's book that did not identify any apprentice from japan.

http://www.guitarsalon.com/p4315-jose-ramirez-1af.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 21:40:13

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to itoprover)

The head of the 2011 Ramirez on the GSI website is somewhat different than the one that was used in the 1970s. It was changed a bit after Amalia took over.
The headstock crest on the "clone" is actually closer to the older one.
There were other minor changes over the years. The differences are subtle but noticeable.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2013 21:55:38

estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to itoprover)

Fauxmirez, but it could be a good one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 13:07:53

itoprover

Posts: 343
Joined: Jan. 3 2006

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to itoprover)

Thank you everyone, I took these pics in a local store, not looking to buy at all
but got curious when I saw that one since it did not have the label but had the
customs stamp and since it kinda looked like an older Ramirez but the price was $999..
It sounds ok, not too impressed with the trebles but it could be just strings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 16:54:46

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to itoprover)

the A and B and high E strings are not correctly wound around the pegs--the direction is backwards. this might be indicative of cheap strings being on the guitar--one would think an owner who would put on decent strings would do so correctly. a nice set of strings the guitar might make it a good one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 20:06:40

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to keith)

quote:

the A and B and high E strings are not correctly wound around the pegs--the direction is backwards. this might be indicative of cheap strings being on the guitar--one would think an owner who would put on decent strings would do so correctly. a nice set of strings the guitar might make it a good one.

Lets see..

3 strings arent wound correctly -> the strings are cheap -> changing the strings 'might' turn it into a good guitar

Talk about conspiracy theories

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 21:12:20

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Just a small one...aren't the E strings supposed to be wound counter to the rest so as to be presented straight on to the nut? That doesn't seem to be happening either.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 21:38:32

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

Just a small one...aren't the E strings supposed to be wound counter to the rest so as to be presented straight on to the nut? That doesn't seem to be happening either.

Just when I thought this couldnt get better

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 21:40:31

pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I'm really not keen on the green wall behind the guitar ...it clashes and I'm finding it offensive to be honest

pink

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 22:04:56

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to keith)

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

the A and B and high E strings are not correctly wound around the pegs--the direction is backwards. this might be indicative of cheap strings being on the guitar--one would think an owner who would put on decent strings would do so correctly. a nice set of strings the guitar might make it a good one.

Keith,
I noticed that as well. I'm trying to figure out why anyone would wrap the strings in this manner. It would be very confusing to tune, dont' you think?

I owned a Ramirez 1a made in the late sixties. I was surprised when it arrived from Spain at how rough the rosewood pegs were. Even the MOP inlays were crudely done (another giveaway that this it not a real Ramirez). The craftsmanship of rest of the guitar was absolutely impeccable which made the ugly pegs even more of an anomaly. For all it's beauty the guitar was an absolute log. I sold it for what I paid so it wasn't a complete loss.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 23:12:53

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to jshelton5040)

Have any of you considered that the guitar might have been restrung to be on display?

Ive had friends stringing the other way around and only noticing it when they actually sat down and played it. Thats what happens when people dont have a string roller and get up to turn the machine heads.

In fact I dont even know how I would string a peg head, never payed much attention to it... maybe thats what happened to the store owner/whoever strung that one.

Indicator of the guitar's value? C'mmoooonn guys!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2013 23:25:27

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to Sr. Martins)

rui--the original poster mentioned the guitar was ok but not impressed with the trebles. the owner, the shop owner or someone else if the guitar is on consignment, may have thrown on cheap strings that do not do the guitar justice. the guitar may be a dog--hard to say but the bizarre orientation of the strings might suggest any set of strings lying around or purchased for a buck or two may have placed on the guitar. will a good set of strings do the guitar justice? there are a boat load of posts here and elsewhere suggesting the right set of strings may make the guitar a good one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 0:50:32

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to keith)

quote:

rui--the original poster mentioned the guitar was ok but not impressed with the trebles.

On this forum you'll even find people who aren't impressed by their guitar case's lack of treble projection.

quote:

the guitar may be a dog--hard to say but the bizarre orientation of the strings might suggest any set of strings lying around or purchased for a buck or two may have placed on the guitar.

Although strings do have influence, I dont believe they will make or break a guitar's character. In fact I prefer to try guitars with crappy old strings. I enjoy listening to the guitars sound instead of the "zingy" hype of new strings.

I dont know what amazes me the most..

String brands/quality on a pedestal vs "string orientation = low quality strings"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 1:13:55

timoteo

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to Sr. Martins)

It looks like the saddle is slanted for compensation. I'm by no means an expert, but I don't think that's typically done on a luthier-built flamenco guitar?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 17 2013 5:30:00

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Please help identify this instrument (in reply to itoprover)

This maybe a long shot but there was a certain guitar dealer in Chicago that was selling a Ramirez copy marketed as a Marcelino Barbero. Here's an excerpt from a guitar forum on this subject:

"Some of the Barberos are all solid wood guitars, and with some work on the fingerboard and a new set of tuners are hard to distinguish from a Ramirez 1A of the same era. I have one of those, and Brune appraised it at $2500."

Its possible yours could be one of these as its from around the same era...
Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 18 2013 20:44:58