Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





fret tang question.. gouging OK?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

fret tang question.. gouging OK? 
Hey fellas - any help on this greatly appreciated.

I bought a Carlos Pina blanca sight-unseen from someone on Foro. When it arrived, I discovered the fretboard was concave. A repairman decided to address it when doing something else to the guitar w/out discussing - not that I would have objected to the idea:
he leveled the frets.
Now there is less fret on the edges - more in the middle. But they are level.

Weird thing is, Pina apparently does something to his frets where he covers up the tang that would be visible on the side of the fretboard. (See pic) So the only way to see where you are would be the visible top of the fret... but as mentioned, the frets were filed down. So basically, when lighting is low, I can't see anything that helps verify fret location. And of course, I use this guitar for all sorts of styles that has me doing big leaps on the fretboard and playing all over the neck.
I put a single dot to help, but a capo @ III is the kiss of death.

SO.. my question is: could I take a razor and dig away the material that is covering the tang? It looks like maybe he used some wood putty and then darkened it.
If I carefully scraped it away w/ a razor, would I be endangering anything? (so yeah, "gouging" was an exaggeration)

I bought this guitar to put a pickup in, and have better instruments, so it's not a sacred guitar or anything.

Thanks



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2013 16:40:35
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to turnermoran) 
Do you really need to see fret location?

that is a trick done specifically with many builders and it takes some time to do. I have done it on two guitars when installing frets and its done with black epoxy.

you can use a dot at 7th fret if you need aid.

you need to replace the frets if you want to see the frets

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2013 20:05:44
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to turnermoran) 
It looks like some of the fret ends are showing in the picture. If that's the case it wouldn't be a big deal to run a flat mill file down the edge of the fingerboard to remove the finish and a tiny bit of wood revealing the fret ends. I wouldn't hesitate to try it but I'm a guitar maker.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2013 23:02:51
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

It looks like some of the fret ends are showing in the picture. If that's the case it wouldn't be a big deal to run a flat mill file down the edge of the fingerboard to remove the finish and a tiny bit of wood revealing the fret ends. I wouldn't hesitate to try it but I'm a guitar maker.


It's possible that the fret was just placed that way to the edge even if there was a cut for the epoxy and that others were placed normally. One can always try to sand down the side a bit at the risk of ruining the finish. I would not bother because I dont even understand why is there a need to see frets

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2013 9:28:02
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to tele) 
I used white liquid paper dots on the edge of the fretboard in the early days, when moving from electric. They wiped off with a little dilute alcohol.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2013 10:54:40
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to tele) 
quote:

And of course, I use this guitar for all sorts of styles that has me doing big leaps on the fretboard and playing all over the neck.
I put a single dot to help, but a capo @ III is the kiss of death.


If you can trill E-D# in first position and then play the same thing 2 octaves higher, in sixteenth notes, with no rest, going back and forth between the 2 positions and hit it perfectly every time, I salute you sir!
Better yet, if you can do this in an improvised setting where you are soloing, with no preconception you'd do this in advance, and not even look at the neck because as you suggest 'there is no reason to look at the frets', then again.. you are the man.
But Vicente, Paco and the rest of them actually look at their guitar from time to time. This can be seen all the time.

Are you playing blindfolded?! Have you cracked the nut and ascended to the next level of guitar playing?!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2013 19:13:57
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
John - if I would be removing black epoxy, wood glue, putty or who knows what - even if I'm filing away a millimeter of material - do you think I'll need to replace it with something?

if nothing else, I'd want the surface to be smooth.

If I were to fill that back in with something, any recommendations?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2013 22:37:57
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

John - if I would be removing black epoxy, wood glue, putty or who knows what - even if I'm filing away a millimeter of material - do you think I'll need to replace it with something?

if nothing else, I'd want the surface to be smooth.

If I were to fill that back in with something, any recommendations?

If the fret ends are simply uneven then I doubt you'll need to remove more than a tiny amount of wood (.5 mm perhaps). The fingerboard should be tapered slightly from the playing surface toward the neck wood so you really only need to remove finish and wood down to the bottom of the fret ends. The mill file will leave a very smooth surface and since ebony is very hard you can use a little polishing compound directly on the exposed wood and buff with a little wax. It will look like it's been refretted. If it were a high end guitar then maybe you wouldn't want to do this but a high end guitar wouldn't have ineven fret ends.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2013 22:55:16
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
Thanks John!
I'll try this and upload a photo of the finished result.

I recently bought a mixed set of needle files, and have various other. I doubt I have the ideal file, but I gather the whole operation is not brain surgery. (famous last words..)

But ultimately, you've confirmed my suspicions: it shouldn't be too difficult.

Thanks
Brian
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2013 23:06:05
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to turnermoran) 
I often fret like this. The fret tang is cut off under the the fret ends before installation so that it ends up recessed back from the fretboard edge.
Pretty much the same process as fretting a bound fretboard
The end of the slot is then filled.
it gives a great clean feel to the fretboard edge.
I would not be trying to expose fret ends, they may be 1 or 2mm below the surface and you will end up with a huge mess.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2013 23:18:10
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to Jeff Highland) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

I often fret like this. The fret tang is cut off under the the fret ends before installation so that it ends up recessed back from the fretboard edge.
Pretty much the same process as fretting a bound fretboard
The end of the slot is then filled.
it gives a great clean feel to the fretboard edge.
I would not be trying to expose fret ends, they may be 1 or 2mm below the surface and you will end up with a huge mess.


THIS IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY.

There can be easily even three millimeters of epoxy or whatever else filling material. BESIDES, the frets are not cut evenly, so you would have to remove uneven amounts from each fret. John, I dont understand your advice, you probably havent fretted like this.

The only option if the process is done normally(1-3mm filling material) is to replace the frets and cut the epoxy out.
If you start filing it out you will have to most likely replace the whole fretboard due to the mess.
The only way you would succeed is if the frets are evenly placed and very close to the edge(the inner fret part) which is very difficult to do. I did this twice and its easy to get the inner fret part 2-3mm away.
So ask yourself if its worth it and consider refretting if you cant learn to play without seeing the fret sides(which is weird IMO).
Fretting like that takes time and its almost like disrespecting the luthiers work trying to achieve exposed fret sides.

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2013 9:45:23
 
Wayne Brown

 

Posts: 124
Joined: Oct. 22 2012
From: Huntersville, North Carolina, USA

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to turnermoran) 
If it were me, I would install side dots on the fingerboard at 5, 7, & 9 or at just 7 as some one suggested. Trying to expose fret ends would be a disaster IMO.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2013 13:17:11
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to Jeff Highland) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

I often fret like this. The fret tang is cut off under the the fret ends before installation so that it ends up recessed back from the fretboard edge.
Pretty much the same process as fretting a bound fretboard
The end of the slot is then filled.
it gives a great clean feel to the fretboard edge.
I would not be trying to expose fret ends, they may be 1 or 2mm below the surface and you will end up with a huge mess.

Jeff,
I did point out that it appeared in the picture that some fret ends were showing. This suggests to me that the ends are uneven rather than recessed.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2013 14:16:57
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
thank guys for chipping in.

John is indeed correct: the fret tangs are not recessed, but in fact protrude ever so slightly out from the fretboard in some cases.

Thus far, the very minimum of filing has exposed the ends, and I suspect I'll be able to either fill in the missing material with the smallest amount of compound, or do nothing and let this very very small amount of missing material be eventually filled in by dirt/debris which will maintain the subtle visible line I'm trying to achieve.
which I'm sure sounds like lunacy or ignorance, but practically I think it's no big deal on a guitar like this.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2013 18:49:52
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: fret tang question.. gouging OK? (in reply to turnermoran) 
i doubt anyone cares still at this point..but just cos I said I'd upload the final product..here it is.
no compound applied.
gonna leave it as is



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2013 19:12:25
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

5.859375E-02 secs.