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Sustain???   You are logged in as Guest
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britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

Sustain??? 
I know 'sustain' is not always a desirable characteristic in a flamenco guitar. But I'm very curious as to how some guitars can have more sustain than others?

As an example; I bought a cheap (200 bucks or so) 3/4 size Cordoba Cadette for use as a practice instrument - for which it serves very well, when sitting in the rear seat of my van on long trips.

But this little thing has amazing sustain, much longer than any of my several better quality hand-made guitars, classical and/or flamenco!

Can anyone explain to me why this should be so? It's a small guitar, using the same strings as the full-size ones - but shorter scale length - and tuned to the same pitch. Yet the sustain is significantly longer.

Any thoughts as to why???

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2013 19:09:21
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to britguy) 
I know only that the way the top is made and the wood of the sides and back effects the sustain.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2013 20:01:02
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to britguy) 
The top is driven by the strings.
A smaller soundboard is naturally stiffer, this means the top and braces can be made lighter.
Less wood to drive and less dampening.
This also explains why a bigger guitar, doesn't always equal a louder guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 21 2013 20:33:14
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to britguy) 
Is the top flat or domed?

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 0:02:14
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
quote:

s the top flat or domed?


I believe it is flat.

But is that what makes such a difference?

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 1:15:16
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to britguy) 
A thicker soundboard will give more sustain. As will denser wood on the back and sides (rosewood or maple vs cypress). As will denser wood on the neck (mahogany vs Spanish cedar).

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 1:21:21
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to britguy) 
I'm getting longer sustain with a flat top style than domed top. And with good balance in the fan braces there is enough sustain for any guitar. Also, thicker tops work well but the volume is less than what a thin top produces.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 3:21:07
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to britguy) 
Sustain is a weird variable, I'm still trying to figure it out myself.
I've played cheap plywood guitars that had sustain that many classical builders would envy.
I've also played guitars that had stiffer tops that had little sustain.
I've played super light cypress flamenco guitars that had very long sustain.
I personally don't mind a little sustain in my flamenco guitars, even blancas.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 13:28:17
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
quote:

I've played cheap plywood guitars that had sustain that many classical builders would envy.


Interesting!

Seems like my little 3/4 size Cadette is one of those.

The sound is not bad either. . .

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 14:38:01
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to britguy) 
Could the "dome" behind the bridge possible have to do something with it?
i played some old guitar with a nice dome and a very old Gerundino, with a too big dome all with very long sustain....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 14:58:30
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to britguy) 
The bridge mass, top mass ratio is one huge factor.
Smallman uses a very light bridge, lighter then Flamenco guitars, but compared to his very light top, it has plenty of mass to keep things moving and give the guitar sustain.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 15:09:11
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to gerundino63) 
You can get longer sustain with alternate techniques but then we get into fine tuning the bracing, and that's another story.

From the middle braces toward the bass side, you can get sustain by leaving the braces the same approximate height, more or less, from top to bottom, and then taper other braces to get certain voicing and articulation.

There are quite a few ways to adjust the voicing, not just this way.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 15:17:14
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to Sean) 
quote:

Smallman uses a very light bridge, lighter then Flamenco guitars, but compared to his very light top, it has plenty of mass to keep things moving and give the guitar sustain.


I get the impression that the reason he makes the back and the rest of the structure so massive is to impart some sustain, but I could be wrong. It seems like lattice guitars can have a "banjo-like" sound with short sustain if not built properly, due to the thin, light top I think.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 1:26:42
 
Flamencosaint

 

Posts: 25
Joined: Mar. 12 2013
 

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to britguy) 
I like sustain. Im sure some of you guys saw the Tarantas of Antonio Rey from the competition which he won in Jerez 2007. He was playing a Conde Negra and that sustain of those basses matched the piece perfectly in my opinion. Perhaps its more the old school flamenco pappa's that doesnt agree with it but I know quite a few good Flamenco players who doesnt really mind it. Then again maybe the professionals has a different view but I like it and also always wanted to know the core of the "secret"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 14:19:32
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Sustain??? (in reply to britguy) 
That could be separation.
It needs lots of it for to afford sustain with staccato as in flamenco application.

I love sustain ever since, but had to return a wonderfully sustaining guitar, because it couldn´t provide the spearation needed. ( The lower mids and basses would completely muddle - already with modest tempo.)
Tight notes can only be as long as they stay nicely separate, otherwise your rasgueados and tremolos will turn muddy.

From there, I believe the art of enabling great separation ( well nudged overtones over fundamentals and main resonance ) will at least to a degree determine how much sustain a flamenco guitar can bear.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 15:02:21
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