Tap Tones

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

Tap Tones

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

prd1

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007

Tap Tones

The following qoute is from the book GUITARMAKING. Tradition and Technology by William R. Cumpiano and Jonathan D. Natelson,

"My experience of thirty five years has led me to the conclusion that "tuning" the sound of a guitar is an illusion and a chimera, and those who publicly advocate that they can accurately control the response of a guitar by responding to noises derived from tapping parts of it, are simply seducing the innocent, or at best, self-deluded."

Pretty harsh stuff!

What do you builders think of this guy's rant?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 9:59:14

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

Hmmm...I've been building for more than 35 years and I still use tap tones to decide when the top is sized correctly. I guess I must be a complete moron if a "master builder" like Cumpiano says so. Has anybody ever seen a Cumpiano guitar? I think he has built a few steel strings and does repairs so of course his "opinion" is more valuable than someone like Romanillos.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 16:02:32

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

I think what Cumpiano should have said is that acheiving consistancy in buiding is largely an intuitive process and as such is non-linear. Therefore the concept that tap tuning or any other method for that matter, can be taught (beyond a basic introduction) is an illusion.

I am always tapping my guitars, throughout every step of the way, starting with the wood selection, the most important decision as it's the only free one, in that I mean once you have your wood. it's the one driving the bus, not you.

Everyone has their own opinion, hopefully formed through experience and not just an abstract theory. As it stands I would not agree with Cumpiano but I also would not agree with someone who thinks they can come up with a foolproof recipe either.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 16:13:30

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

I recently read the book Tap Tuning by Roger Siminoff. I am afraid that I am too stupid to understand what he really says in that book since he states that it is possible to "build great sounding instruments by tuning the braces in the guitar to specific notes). To me "tuning" has always been a too crude way of deciding the right stiffness in a guitar top since the mass always interfere with the resulting tone height of the tap.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2007 20:32:27

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

Here's an interesting audio program on tap-tuning courtesy of NPR (only 4.5 minutes long).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2007 1:05:39

kuqi

Posts: 8
Joined: Jan. 5 2008

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

Hello all - first post - tap tones - normally a subject that arouses the passions of every experienced builder (although not on this site?)

I think the lack of responses may look like a lot of builders are a bit embarrassed about their 'self-delusions'...I'm sure this is not so...but it can be dificult to put intuition into words.

jshelton - you have much experience with wood and guitars - if you've 'tapped' each piece over the 35 years and seen a lot of these pieces through to completed guitars I'm sure you will be able to associate tap tone with the finished sound of a guitar - but I'm also sure this will only be part of the equation - i.e. with a fixed thicknes of wood you will compare flexability and mass, and also a significant factor will be the grain.

Less experienced builders without the feel for the wood may well take more comfort in the cut of the wood (i.e. grain running orthoganal to the cut surface).

I have also found many builders will fine trim the harmonic bars to produce tap tones that produce 'musical' differences e.g. a fifth apart .

I'd like to put another theory forward for you builders to consider (I don't expect you all to agree - just to consider!):
the sound of a guitar is characterised by the sum of the fundamental note and the harmonics that are produced as a consequence of the build of the guitar (and the players style - which cannot be controlled). Tunning the guitar to musical differences produces odd harmonics - the human ear would much prefer 2nd order harmonics (hence the love of the sound of the value amplifier for both musicians and hi-fi enthusiasts). This sound occurs in most guitars but only over a very narrow range - if in doubt get the spectrum analysers out and play around with the capo. Can any of you produce a guitar rich in 2nd order harmonics over the whole range of the guitar?

Kuqi

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2008 15:55:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

quote:

I recently read the book Tap Tuning by Roger Siminoff. I am afraid that I am too stupid to understand what he really says in that book since he states that it is possible to "build great sounding instruments by tuning the braces in the guitar to specific notes). To me "tuning" has always been a too crude way of deciding the right stiffness in a guitar top since the mass always interfere with the resulting tone height of the tap.

I´ve got the same book and I must say I find it to be a complete waste of time just like his Luthiers handbook. Or maybe I´m to stupid as well.

I tap as well. Pretty much as Aaron says. In general my flamenco guitars end up around F - F# depending on the btacing system. I dont think its to important as there are thousands of ways to get to that pitch, but it gives me an idea of what I do.
What I find to be of most importance is the balance of the soundboard, Now I build symetrical and tune the two sides of the instrument the same, before I built asymetrical and the pitches were different. I believe in that I (and others) am capable of "remembering" when something is right. Its a metter of practize and especially of "being there" when you work. Remembering that musical instrument building is not a standard 8 to 4 job, where "being there" is more a physical state. I talk about a spiritual state where you connect with yourself and what you work and things seem to be quite clear.

Another thing is that you can build very nice instruments without tapping. If you make the top and back with an even thickness and the braces the same thickness, you are close to making a good sound. Tapping, for me, is more about controlling and a way of getting a higher consistency in my building.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2008 19:42:16

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to kuqi)

quote:

jshelton - you have much experience with wood and guitars - if you've 'tapped' each piece over the 35 years and seen a lot of these pieces through to completed guitars I'm sure you will be able to associate tap tone with the finished sound of a guitar - but I'm also sure this will only be part of the equation - i.e. with a fixed thicknes of wood you will compare flexability and mass, and also a significant factor will be the grain.

Less experienced builders without the feel for the wood may well take more comfort in the cut of the wood (i.e. grain running orthoganal to the cut surface).

Tap tones are a part of the wood selection process for me but not as important is stiffness and weight. Grain and color are more cosmetic considerations and not nearly as important as amount of runout.

Like Anders mentioned the greatest value of tap tones is knowing when the guitar is finished. I tap very softly in circles around the bridge location and listen for uniformity and a certain percussive quality that's hard to describe. It's just another tool to use to try to eliminate some of the myriad variables in the process (along with flexing, rubbing, humming in the sound hole, etc.).

Building guitars can never be very scientific since you create such a tiny number each year. In order to be sure what a change in design is really doing could take a lifetime. A great deal of what luthiers believe is therefore supposition based largely on a combination of experience and intuition. Of course being a first class woodworker and having a large stock of wood doesn't hurt.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2008 3:50:07

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

If I had to choose between going for correct stiffness or correct tap response I would choose the correct stiffness. Nothing is more essential in a guitar than the correct mechanical stiffness, i.e. how the top work as a spring board.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2008 3:52:55

prd1

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to jshelton5040)

Hello All,

Happy new year!

Thanks for all the replies... I thought you may find Mr Cumpiano's comments harsh.

John - I'm not convinced that the grain is purely cosmetic, wood thats been rift sawn, or quater sawn will produce boards where the grain runs at 90 degrees through the board resulting in a more stable soundboard which is less susceptable to distortion with changes to temperature and humidity.

Becoming a first class woodworker is something I'll have to continue to work at. As for the large stock of wood - I've seen your webpage - any donations would be most welcome !!!!!!!

Peter

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 0:43:04

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

quote:

ORIGINAL:
John - I'm not convinced that the grain is purely cosmetic, wood thats been rift sawn, or quater sawn will produce boards where the grain runs at 90 degrees through the board resulting in a more stable soundboard which is less susceptable to distortion with changes to temperature and humidity.

Forgive me Peter if I wasn't clear. Using quartered wood is axiomatic. I was referring to width, straightness, uniformity, color, etc. of grain as cosmetic.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 10:20:25

DoctorX2k2

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

After seeing Ervin Somogyi videos on Voicing a guitar, I'd say it's possible. Too bad they're not around anymore... you'd have to take a class.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 13:43:41

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to DoctorX2k2)

This is depressing.

Tap as I might (with a rubber mallet on the board below the braces, or on the harmonic bars), I keep getting a note between C and C# (68Hz). This is for a fully braced, barred and rosetted soundboard. If I am extremely gentle I can just about produce a note near F (43 Hz!) but it's very faint - i.e. I can't hear it, but the tuner senses it. In general, the sound is quite muddy and the resonance short lived, completely NOT like Sn. Somogyi or an audio file referred to on this forum.

All these frequencies are below the bottom E on the guitar!

The top is Spruce (from 2011), between 2 and 2.3 mm thick plus the odd edge 'effect' of 1.8mm

. The braces are 6 x 3.5 roughly. As I'm doing this by inexperienced hand it's only as precise as I can get it.

Any ideas? I've read that the tone is lowered as material is removed so it would seem I have gone way too far - but it's really not that bad (as they say). Er..dirty mark, oil on clamping caul. Tape - gluing splintered edge together.

Thanks.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2013 15:48:17

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to Per Hallgren)

I read Siminoff's book and found him to be full of BS. I have also read Cumpiano and Natelson and think they are very thoughtful but may not have expressed themselves well. Obviously we can tell something by tapping and listening. I also always tap, Aaron, and what I hear tells me whether this guitar is coming out similarly to other ones that sounded a certain way when tapped. This much tapping can do, I am sure. But I don't ever tune any part of the guitar to a particular pitch (except the strings}, which I think is a silly idea.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2013 16:16:09

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to El Burdo)

Idea: Make the guitar with it and it will probably sound better than you could ever have hoped for. At least you will learn something. (And stop tapping with a rubber mallet. Use your knuckle.)

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2013 16:18:42

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to DoctorX2k2)

quote:

Ervin Somogyi videos on Voicing a guitar

I have seen parts of these videos and was appalled at the way Somogyi made sweeping statements as if they were fact, when in fact they were only his untested theories. Such as the important thing for a good sound being the "continuity" of the soundboard. That's funny; all of mine have a big hole in them, and harmonic bars.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2013 16:23:31

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I hear you, but C# below the E string seems to be a very long way from F# on the D string, which whether you aim for it or not, is what most of the luthiers on this forum report as their tap resonance.
Like you, I have noticed a big hole in the surface of the soundboard but I got round it by dropping in an ornate piece of marquetry to divert attention.

I don't like it; there's something wrong.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2013 16:54:35

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

El Burdo

.5mm taper seems like a lot, especially since it's not even attached to the sides yet; you will lose even more around the outside when doing the bindings.

The tap tone will change when you attach the sides

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2013 17:15:55

prd1

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to Sean)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

El Burdo

.5mm taper seems like a lot, especially since it's not even attached to the sides yet; you will lose even more around the outside when doing the bindings.

The tap tone will change when you attach the sides

...the guitar is a coupled system so, as Sean says, the tone will change when the sides are fitted..in fact any limiting force attached to the top when tapping will affect what you get back - have you tried popping your finger through the soundhole and tapping around the area of the bridge rather than supporting the soundboard by pinching at a nodal point?

This may not tell you much about how the completed guitar will sound, but tapping in different places will give you a feel for tapping i.e. tap around the sides and you'll find that the soundboard flops around with hardly and response, as you tap nearer to the bridge you'll find a nodal point where the board stops flapping and starts ringing, tapping around will give you an idea of where this nodal spot extends to.

Again - this isn't going to tell you much about the finished guitar but you will get a feel for the board and it may help you to feel for consistency in future...?

_____________________________

Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music - Angela Monet

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2013 19:14:58

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

I agree with Ethan's assessment of Siminoff and Somogyi

The frequency of the free soundboard is totally different to when it is supported by the rims, don't worry about what it is now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2013 22:01:25

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to Sean)

quote:

.5mm taper seems like a lot

It's not quite that bad. I should have enough wood left to ruin it later on...

quote:

tapping in different places will give you a feel for tapping

Yes, I'm doing that as you say getting a feel for it. I am surprised at how un-ringing the sounds are. It also varies around the soundboard. I've done the hole, the edge.

No-one seems to be able to offer a reason why the note is so low? It's the most dominant pitch, though not the only one. However, it feels quite solid at the moment, so it 'll be interesting when it changes when the thing is put together.

Thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2013 9:02:10

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

F# on the D string, which whether you aim for it or not, is what most of the luthiers on this forum report as their tap resonance.

That's interesting to know. I just checked a typical one of mine and I get something like a G (3rd fret of sixth string) when I hold it up at the top and tap in the bridge area. I'm sure I've had lower. So I really do think your soundboard may yield good surprises. I have found that a low, flexible soundboard does not necessarily favor low notes; it can favor a great raspy flamenco sound with strength in low and high ranges.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2013 6:21:09

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

Ethan, tap testing of the finished guitar is a very interesting and worthwhile exercise IMHO.
The most dominant sound you hear is the air resonance (often inaccurately called the Helmholtz) this is often around G (98 Hz) as you have found.
This is primarily determined by the volume of air enclosed by the guitar body, the size of the soundhole, and the flexibility of the top, back and sides. A true Helmholtz would have a rigid body.
The next two resonant modes are for simplicity termed the top and the back and generally occur about an octave higher and then a few semitones higher again.
Measuring these is best done with frequency analysis software

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2013 7:41:44

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

I don't worry too much about tapping until the box is assembled. I tap on the parts before I put them together to see how musical they are...dead thumpy sounds worry me.

Be fore you cut the binding channels the main air frequency might be at on level, then you cut the channels and it drops dramatically. Then when you bind it brings the main air back up, but not always to the same place it was before binding. Then scraping the bindings changes the main air a bit too. And the size of the binding an how far they cut into the rim support, whether it be solid of glue blocks changes the main air a bit.

All those little things moderate the main air slightly sometimes enough to move it up or down a whole tone. But in the end it was said up thread by Per that mechanical stiffness and how you articulate that through thickness a bracing is really important.

I think that juncture is where the rift between those that feel building by tactile awareness alone differ for those who feel that monitoring tap tones is best. There is a bit of truth in in both, but I feel they work together. However I depend more on mechanical tactile experience an then see if the main air comes out around F#- G . A bigger plantilla I find is easier to get a lower main air and smaller plantilla tends to wind up closer to G most of the time. That is for my taste in cross grain stiffness.

All those books mentioned and Somogyi I think are all wrong about flamenco guitars which have been built without any of that knowledge.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2013 8:26:34

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

Ethan, tap testing of the finished guitar is a very interesting and worthwhile exercise IMHO.
The most dominant sound you hear is the air resonance (often inaccurately called the Helmholtz) this is often around G (98 Hz) as you have found.

No, I was talking about a braced soundboard only.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2013 23:23:06

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to El Burdo)

quote:

This is depressing.

Tap as I might (with a rubber mallet on the board below the braces, or on the harmonic bars), I keep getting a note between C and C# (68Hz). This is for a fully braced, barred and rosetted soundboard. If I am extremely gentle I can just about produce a note near F (43 Hz!) but it's very faint - i.e. I can't hear it, but the tuner senses it. In general, the sound is quite muddy and the resonance short lived, completely NOT like Sn. Somogyi or an audio file referred to on this forum.

Burdo,

How is this going? I read the comments Ethan gave you and I thought it was pretty right on. But yeah you have to stop using the rubber mallet ~~~LOL :D]

I think you have the makings of a good top there and I would also add don't over think it.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2013 5:17:52

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to estebanana)

Well I've moved on to the box now and the top is face down on the solera. I decided not to sweat it as the general view here was not to worry. I found by repeatedly headbutting it I was able to hear a ringing tone around F#. At my normal rate of work I should be able to report back in September...

Thanks.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2013 8:58:52

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Tap Tones (in reply to prd1)

Good, you have embraced the Alfred E. Newman school. Most promising.

Embraced...get it ? yuck yuck

*rimshot*

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2013 11:51:28