Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to britguy)
quote:
ORIGINAL: britguy
quote:
As well as being a virtuoso performer he is also something of a compositional genius.
I'm sure you must be referring to Ramon Montoya; but I think he's dead. . .
And I don't know if his hearing was all that great either. But they didn't have all this modern sophisticated testing stuff in those days. . .
(What the **** is going on in here. . .?)
Well Britguy, some heretic has implied that Segovia was the greatest guitarist of this century. I'm not quite as old as the heretic or you but I've felt the same since I first heard the maestro some 60 years ago. I also agree with you that Ramon Montoya is the source of all modern solo flamenco guitar and still the greatest proponent of the style. I like Paco's bulerias but not much else and would rather listen to Moraito or Cepero any day. Furthermore you can take all this modern crap with flutes, cellos and percussion and flush it where it belongs. Flamenco is cante. If you add a single guitar it gets better and even better with palmas.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to jshelton5040)
yeah, but with all due respect when paco used to play more traditional stuff with camaron and maria vargas, fosforito etc he was damned good in all the palos (and i'm sure still is)
i dont see what the big deal is about aeleous opinions..he can still be a fan of flamenco and think classical is better...i'm not qualified to make that judgement and prefer flamenco myself, but i'm not ashamed to say i like thrashing guitars better than nuance, it sounds more like the chaos that is in my life and it rings true
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
I don't believe that Segovia was as obtuse as many of his pronouncements make him seem, in much the same way that I don't believe that George Bush junior was quite as stupid as he seemed. I think Segovia had great intuitive understanding of the snobbery and prejudice that were rife in the market he was trying to tap into. I believe that he tailored his comments to appeal to 'cultured philistines'. Thus all flamenco was rubbish, all other guitarists were rubibsh, electric guitar was rubbish all folk music rubbish, composers that did not write pieces to exploit his style were rubbish etc etc.
Lots of his fans lapped this nonsense up.
From the previous Segovia thread wherein I saw you coming. Congratulations on being both a cliche and a fool.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to britguy)
Aeolus,
The fact that flamenco hosts improvisation and that some gigs can indeed be less musical than virtuouso demo ... does not mean that there ain´t no highly structured, beautifully melodical and extremely accurately phrased of it. In fact the latter is what mainly attracts me to this genre.
I am willing to bet with you that there exists a whole album which once listened to will make you revise your view on flamenco guitar. It is titled "Paco Doble" and contains latin pieces too, but that won´t make it any lesser.
As the album is not available anymore long since, here the tracks you might want to check for:
Paco de Lucia
Amapola Pajaro chogui Yo vendo unos ojos negros Guadalajara (Yo todo) A media lu Tico - tico Quizas, quizas, quizas
Paco Pena
La Bamba Caminando Choros no.2 Ritmo Orquidea Carnival from "Black Orfeus" Valse Criollo Danza Venezolana
There you should be served with all the finesse you could have ever thought of.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shroomy726
If you really want to show the genius architecture of Flamenco compositions ...
While among the pieces in the PD album there do definitly exist compositions exclusively typical for the genre, Aeoulus did not really ask for "the genius architecture" of it.
Read again what he claims would be missing in flamenco (playing) and then listen to "Paco Doble" and tell me again it would not precisely refute Aeoulus´impression.
- Before I forget to ask: Do you know at all the music on that album?
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to britguy)
aeolus, if you slow down recordings by Vicente Amigo, Paco de Lucia, Gerardo Nunez, Rafael Riqueni and a few others you will hear that their playing is as detailed as can be. Vicente's recordings are especially exceptional in their musical expression. No reason to compare with Segovia as the two styles are basically apples and oranges.
One question for you: would you rather hear Bach and Scarlatti performed on the piano or harpsichord?
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to britguy)
I don't dispute Aeoulus' contention that classical guitarists emphasize dynamics, tonality, and inflection to a more refined degree than flamenco guitarists. I think the objective of a classical guitarist is to bring out as much character and emotion out of a piece as possible, which is why the same piece played by different artists can still sound unique with each performance.
Flamenco guitar comes from a different tradition, a tradition based around dance, song, and storytelling. Flamenco guitarist don't try to play the same exact piece over and over as written, but instead share a common vocabulary of compases and falsetas that can be mixed and matched and personalized as desired. The rhythm and pulse of a piece seems (to me) to receive more emphasis. There is a tendency for guitarist to gravitate towards faster, flashier, even "over the top" interpretations... but I feel this contributes towards the passion and intensity of flamenco, which is what makes it interesting to me.
From what I have been listening to, Flamenco guitarists do not disregard dynamics, inflection, and tonality... I hear it all of the time. I just don't think they are as obsessive about it.
I don't see how inculcating a musical "purist" philosophy in any way enhances an enjoyment of music. Each style brings something different to the table. Elevating one form whilst denigrating another seems to be a waste of time, and prevents you from appreciating something for what it is, rather than what you think it should be.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
implied that Segovia was the greatest guitarist of this century
Well - as an average lout from the rural Welsh Border area - I don't feel too comfortable getting involved in all this high-flying "nuance" stuff.
But, for what it's worth; I think maybe Sr. Segovia did a lot to advance the art of the guitar significantly; and also brought the potential of the instrument to the attention of many whose idea of the guitar's capabilities was three chords, played in skiffle, 'folk' and rock-n' -roll groups!
However; as for being the 'greatest guitarist of this century'; I'd say that's really a question of personal taste. And personally - in spite of the 'nuances' (?) - I've always found Segovia's playing a bit boring.
(But you gotta admire a guy that played tremolo with only two fingers. . .)
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to britguy)
It was a sense of trepidation that I returned here after my scabrous remarks. But I am glad I did as I have learned much.
from jshelton
Flamenco is cante. If you add a single guitar it gets better and even better with palmas.
That's my feeling exactly and the reason I asked for info on Latcho Drom. This is the alpha and omega of flamenco.
from Miguel de Maria Aeolus, you may be talking about Matanya Ophee's article:
I hadn't seen it but was planning to buy his new edition of the complete Sor studies. I think Matanya adds some explication as to what Segovia meant back in the day.
and to Grisha..I have all of Vincente's albums and agree completely. And yes the piano as Glen Gould made a persuasive argument on that some time ago.
One final dig. So you think you have a hot picado.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to britguy)
My regards to those who can discuss the topic without personal insult. My experience with CG is that the interpreter's job is almost completely to add life and nuance to a lifeless blueprint. And that blueprint is harmonically and melodically, though usually not rhythmically, far, far more complicated than a flamenco composition.
Even something like a Sor study has 3 voices, all of which are supposed to be clearly heard and understood by the listener. The famous Sor-Segovia, Op6No8 is such a piece. My sheet music literally has pencil marks for interpretation and direction on every measure. Certain notes are accented so that the listener is made aware a new melody is starting. A common "move" is that the treble gets louder while the bass simultaneouly gets more quiet. Every dominant chord is played louder than its resolution. In the penultimate section there is a chain is suspension/resolutions where a chord resolves to another which resolves to another. When I say "chord", it is probably more true to realize you are playing three melodies at the same time, which all must sing and act like melodies, which often come together in chord shapes. And this is a 39 mm. study based on a simple three note theme.
As beautiful as Sabicas and Paco's compositions are, surely one can't make the same claim. The amount of information in a handful of measures of a Bach fugue, all of which is meant to be clearly articulated, might be the equivalent of an entire simple flamenco composition such as Panaderos Flamencos. And all CGers play Bach.
It would seem difficult to argue that the flamenco players can add as much nuance to homophonic lines as a CGer _must_ to complex, polyphonic work. Unless the argument is the extra rhythmic options take up the slack.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
Without getting into any shooting matches, let me just say the preconceptions about flamenco playing can be pretty annoying. Flamenco guitar is a wide scope, including all points discussed here about nuance and dynamics. And it even is more deep than all about accompanying a singer exclusively, and that goes for ALL maestro players throughout recorded history back even before segovia career starts. Look no further than the expression and nuance in this players COMPOSITION, though it borrows on traditional elements. If you think it not to be virtuosic, please reproduce those fast legatos as clean and expressed as he does, if you think it be only noise and noodle, please try to recreate the tone yourself on a classical guitar etc etc
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Look no further than the expression and nuance in this players COMPOSITION, though it borrows on traditional elements. If you think it not to be virtuosic, please reproduce those fast legatos as clean and expressed as he does, if you think it be only noise and noodle, please try to recreate the tone yourself on a classical guitar etc etc
Ricardo, Good choice, how can one not love watching Melchor give his smart ass son a lesson in musicianship; but I prefer to listen to him accompany one of the many great cantaores he worked with rather than playing solo.
Posts: 3487
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
The great thing about 80 is you've beaten the odds and anything more is gravy. The down side is your hearing is crap. I remember at 17 hearing a Segovia recording with probably more than he could hear at his age and being left in a trance. That's the worst of it. I remember reading about Pete Townsend and his campaign to lower the volume at rock concerts because he had young children and his hearing was so poor he couldn't understand their high pitched voices. It doesn't take long for one's hearing to fall to 8000 cycles.
By now the following is practically OT, but I will pick up on it all the same. Both my brother, a distingushed physician, and my audiologist, a Fellow of [whatever the American sciety of audiologists is] tell me that hearing loss with age in modern society is not senility, but rather accumulated noise damage. An 80 year old man who has lived all his life in the Amazon rain forest is likely to have hearing as acute as a 16 year old American girl. Interesting, but not much help to a 75 year old like me who had too many motorcycles, guns and airplanes in his youth.
What is helpful is modern hearing aid technology. Seven or eight years ago it got harder for me to follow conversations in the noisy cafeteria which was the only place to eat at the remote military base where I lived in the Central Pacific. While on vacation back in Austin I consulted an audiologist.
A few years previously I had an interesting conversation in Bali, with an American. He said he was a truck driver back in the USA, and made good money. But surprisingly, he also said he was a member of the family who were the primary owners of the Beltone hearing aid company. He wanted nothing to do with the business because it was so fraudulent. He wasn't interested in going into detail.
So when it came time to consult an audiologist, I mulled over how to select one, since I had no friends in a position to advise me. I looked over the listings and selected the one who I concuded, from my knowledge of Austin, was paying the highest rent for their office. It has proven to be a good, though expensive choice.
She is a Fellow of [whatever]. Her husband is an engineer. At the time, he was an active participant who was available during office hours, so we could talk details of technology. She mentioned clients who were retired faculty members of the Unoversity of Texas music faculty. I called up the faculty people, who gave her a warm recommendation.
Long story short, it has been a good deal for me, though as I said, expensive.
Several years ago I began to develop numbness in my left pinky due to a pinched nerve in the neck from an old motorcycle wreck. I ended up not playing. I believed the reason was the numb pinky.
A couple of months ago I decided, since I am now retired and have plenty of time, to find out what I could do with the sensation left in the pinky. I made a pleasant discovery. The problem with my playing was, in large part more due to hearing loss than to the bad finger. To get enough sound from the guitar I was having to thrash too hard. The resulting excess tension in both hands was messing things up. With the new hearing aids I can once again hear nuances, and I am learning to eliminate the excess tension. The finger is not what it once was, but it is still improving. I'll see where it goes. But once again the sound of the guitar itself is a thing of beauty for me.
The frequency response of the hearing aids can be tweaked quite considerably. At the moment they are just a little too bright. This week I have an appointment, free of charge, to bring in my guitar and work on the tweaking. The retired music faculty members assure me that the audiologist will work with me until I am satisfied.
I could buy a very nice guitar for what I've paid for hearing aids. My audiologist has always been happy to work with me to get things tuned up just right. It's money well spent, as far as I'm concerned. (And I'm quite happy with the guitars I've already got.)
I'm pretty sure you can get an excellent result for cosiderably less money.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
One final dig. So you think you have a hot picado.
This piece was a victim of Segovia's editing, there aren't supposed to be any repeats. The guy plays well but there are a lot of mistakes at the end and I personally would like a little more articulation. Tempo oscillates around 150 which is good in terms of stamina but for raw speed Grisha can do 170 for as long as this, cleaner and better articulated.
Now a real challenge would be to play the Villla Lobos piece at 150 without the repeats ( much more difficult)...... I think I'm up for it how about you ?
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to britguy)
quote:
Now a real challenge would be to play the Villla Lobos piece at 150 without the repeats ( much more difficult)...... I think I'm up for it how about you ?
Where can I hear Grisha playing this at 170? I think Lisner recorded the etudes without repeats tho I can't see what diff it would make. The only one I can play is #1 and I heard a live broadcast of Almeida where he flubbed the first attempt at the top to bottom run and repeated it without error. A brave man. So let us here you play this a 150.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Not too many players are going to beat Matt Palmer for speed. And this piece is "Des arpeges", not "Des picado". Check out MP doing some shredding on this Rodrigo piece:
Fireworks commence at about 1:50. I think this would be a great piece for Grisha to play.
Printable Version
Having a musical ear is something else. Obviously. 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread