Converting a Classical to a Negra

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Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

Converting a Classical to a Negra

I found several threads about classical vs negra, but has anyone tried to take a classical guitar and convert it into a real negra by changing the top?

My father has a beautiful old classical guitar that will be mine one day, and although I enjoy listening to classical guitar, I am not much of a classical player. I thought it would be interesting to try and convert it to a negra.

Would it be possible for a luthier to use the rosewood back and sides and build a proper negra?

Thanks much for any advice/insights!

(I should add that the top has some slight damage as the bridge has started to lift off of the guitar)

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2013 23:32:35

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

It is quite involved to change the top on a guitar--maybe easier to start from scratch. But there are luthiers who like that kind of work and it is possible.

Since the bridge is coming off already, it might be good to replace it with a lower, flamenco-style bridge if the neck angle and fingerboard height allow for a lower action, and see if you like the result as a negra.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2013 23:44:56

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

I thought it would be interesting to try and convert it to a negra.

Very interesting if you have a lot of money. Post pictures of the process.

IMHO, its a bad idea. Let that classical be classical instead of butchering it.

What you can do, if the neckangle allows it, is to change the bridge and evt. shave down the fingerboard if its very thick.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 8:18:40

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Altough Manolo Sanlucar played classical as a flamenco, so maybe its not the worst idea. I suppose changing the top is a bit too much.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 13:53:41

Coroy

Posts: 31
Joined: Mar. 8 2012
From: Germany

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to tele)

How about changing the woodsticks below the top e.g. carving them thinner?

I have one classical too which has very low strings without buzzing but the sound could be less classical.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 14:07:17

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

convert it into a real negra by changing the top?

quote:

How about changing the woodsticks below the top e.g. carving them thinner?

Empieza el llanto de la guitarra ......

Now I know what Lorca meant in his famous poem!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 14:23:20

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

Thanks for advice so far. I know it is not ideal to butcher a classical guitar this way, but it is the only way I can think to turn the guitar into something I can use instead of something with sentimental value that will just sit in its case because I cannot sell it.

Just recycling the rosewood back and sides does seem extreme, but I figure by changing the top the guitar can be truly converted to a flamenco, since I am guessing the top is one of the most important elements there?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 14:30:08

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

It depends on the guitar, some guitars would have potential for this conversion and some would never become flamenco even if you changed the top.

Some classicals, depending on the sound, will lend themselves well to being converted to a negra by just lowering the action and maybe shaving down the fingerboard more at the soundhole end to allow for a lower saddle height.
This will lead to lower torque on the top so you might be able to shave the braces down a little. On some guitars that will be enough to leave you with an acceptable sounding negra.

The retopping is pretty extreme... it's so easy to just make a new guitar

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 15:10:34

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

Just recycling the rosewood back and sides does seem extreme, but I figure by changing the top the guitar can be truly converted to a flamenco, since I am guessing the top is one of the most important elements there?

I have a feeling you dont know how Spanish guitars are made...

What is the stringheight at the bridge over the top? 6th string at 12th fret? and how thick is the fingerboard at the nut and at the soundhole?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 18:01:16

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

I have a feeling you dont know how Spanish guitars are made...

Yes Anders, and there is no way I am doing this myself for this reason. I wish I could, but I would probably end up burning the guitar as a sacrifice like Jimi Hendrix.

I can get you those measurements soon Anders! Will you use them to determine whether it is enough to just replace the bridge which is peeling off of the top anyway and needs replacing?

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 18:07:56

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

Will you use them to determine whether it is enough to just replace the bridge which is peeling off of the top anyway and needs replacing?

I might be able to say if the thing can be converted.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 18:19:50

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

My father has a beautiful old classical guitar that will be mine one day, and although I enjoy listening to classical guitar, I am not much of a classical player. I thought it would be interesting to try and convert it to a negra.

"My father has a beautiful old classical."

Think about that statement. Do you really want to convert something you unselfconsciously called a beautiful old thing from your father?

Also think about this, if you change it and decide you want your fathers beautiful old classical back, can you reverse what you have done to it?

If you simply slipped in a lower saddle, carefully taped a temporary tap plate on the face and played it for a day or two you may get an idea of what it would be like.

Does it do rasgueado to your satisfaction? If not, don't convert it. Not worth it.

Just my caveat on euphoric hopeful thinking.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 18:31:50

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

Does it do rasgueado to your satisfaction? If not, don't convert it. Not worth it.

I agree. Thats the test.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 18:34:44

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

"My father has a beautiful old classical."

Think about that statement. Do you really want to convert something you unselfconsciously called a beautiful old thing from your father?

I totally agree and I don't want the guitar ruined, but I don't want it sitting in a case forever either. I will try the rasgueado test and since the bridge needs replacing anyway, perhaps leave it at that for now.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 18:40:34

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

Change yourself instead of change the guitar, play a bit of classical

It won't kill you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 19:41:55

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

I cannot sell it.

why not? if it's because of the bridge coming off, why not get it repaired and then sell it?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 20:03:42

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

oh,

well it has sentimental value. It belongs to my dad now who does not play too much anymore, but growing up it was his pride and joy and I was not allowed to play it. Not sure I could bring myself to sell it you see.

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 20:47:30

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

Glue the bridge back on and start playing it in front of him and then he'll be happy. Then if he can, he will try to take it away from you and play himself.

There must be some classical piece that you could play, what are you interested in?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 20:53:27

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry

oh,

well it has sentimental value. It belongs to my dad now who does not play too much anymore, but growing up it was his pride and joy and I was not allowed to play it. Not sure I could bring myself to sell it you see.

On occasion I will take the time to fine tune other guitars than my own, for a guitar factory in Spain. What are the number of fan braces in the top and who made the guitar. Is it a high quality instrument or a less expensive brand? How long is the playing scale and how high is the bridge saddle on the 6th string, at the bridge? Measure right under the 6th string, at the bridge, from the top.

I normally charge 500 to 750 US for the project and about 2800 US for top replacement. A well known Chicago builder usually charges about 4500 US....... And you pay the shipping charges both ways. And if the guitar is Brazilian rosewood sides and back, then it's best not to ship it across borders.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2013 15:35:02

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

Watch this and then see if you still want to do it:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2013 15:51:16

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

Glue the bridge back on and start playing it in front of him and then he'll be happy. Then if he can, he will try to take it away from you and play himself.

There must be some classical piece that you could play, what are you interested in?

Hey!

I love Villa-Lobos. His compositions are funky.

Well, I am not sure if this thread has helped me or confused me more. Definitely altering the guitar feels risky and pricey.

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2013 19:01:12

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Watch this and then see if you still want to do it:

Lol!

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2013 19:03:51

Ricardo

Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

as mentioned lower bone put on tap plate and that's about the best its worth doing. THats all most players do anyway that like a classical guitar and used if for flamenco. Wont be as fun a set up as a proper flamenco but it might sound good.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2013 20:31:15

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

Not sure I could bring myself to sell it you see.

understood

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2013 17:29:03

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Converting a Classical to a Negra (in reply to Harry)

quote:

as mentioned lower bone put on tap plate and that's about the best its worth doing. THats all most players do anyway that like a classical guitar and used if for flamenco. Wont be as fun a set up as a proper flamenco but it might sound good.

thanks for this and for all of your advice everyone. I think that for now this is the best option since doing anything more extreme may cost too much and may alter something that has much sentimental value.

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2013 1:14:25