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Reliabe tonewood source?   You are logged in as Guest
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beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

Reliabe tonewood source? 
Hi,

Could the respected luthiers here direct me to an actual, and reliable source for tonewoods here in Europe (spruce, cedar, cypress, rosewood, maple - just the usual stuff)?
I'd like to help a local luthier here, who I assume as a very gifted person, but His woods doesn't match the quality of His work.

Thanks
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2013 13:02:29
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to beno) 
Madinter is reliable, but you might have to dry the wood after.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2013 14:59:21
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to beno) 
I second the Madinter option. I also second that you have to leave the wood some 3 - 5 years before you use it depending on the wood. Sometimes the wood from Madinter is very green. But consistancy is good and you get what you order.
Maderas Barber in Valencia has great wood. I´ve been there once and they´ve been to Granada many times. I´ve also ordered from them on the internet once, and I will NEVER do so again.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2013 16:10:04
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to beno) 
For Spruce, Cypress and Maple I would recommend Akustik tonewood in Turkey. http://www.akustikwood.com/indexen.htm

I've been extremely impressed with the quality of the wood they send me and the free(!) shipping doesn't hurt. He informs me that the wood is air dried for 2-3 years after being sawn into guitar sets and it does appear well seasoned when I get it, much more so than LMI for example.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2013 17:11:51
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to beno) 
Just one thing Andy

Hungary is European Union (EU) and here we pay a LOT in import taxes. If I buy in Türkiye or in other non EU countrys, I end up with some 30% extra and a good deal of burocratic nonsense.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 2 2013 8:04:01
 
beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to beno) 
Thank You guys, I really appreciate Your effort!
I'll look both You mentioned, though Anders is right about the taxes...
The guy I'm trying to help is really good guy, work as a professional furniture-restaurateur.
I've played about 5 or 6 guitars of His, and all was very good. One of His maple guitars has easily beaten a Sanchis Carpio 'bulerias' model that I had with me at that moment to compare....
It's just the guy doesn't believe He can sell His guitars, so didn't even tried it so far He consider it as a hobby...so far..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 2 2013 16:05:29
 
kominak

 

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 20 2010
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to beno) 
Hi,
I live close enough (Slovakia) and I bought tonewood from both Turkey(octopuss) and Madinter in Spain. Unless they ship the tonewood 1st class from Turkey there's little chance you'll pay taxes so it's a relatively cheap tonewood. On the other hand the quality wasn't on par with Madinter. Another excelent source is David Dyke from UK - not cheap, but seasoned wood, excelent quality - you can build right away..
Madinter has probably the best price/performance ratio if you have time for seasoning the wood. But I have heard their euro spruce is not the best - I'd like to buy tops for my next build from this or this guy - but I'm just an amateur so take it with a grain of salt.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 2 2013 18:00:53
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to kominak) 
It's a bit depressing to find that the wood I have just bought (from Madinter) needs to be left for 5 years. I guess you mean for it to be at the end of its stabilising process? What happens if a guitar is built with wood that has not been left for long enough? Will it deform, or will it take a few years for the sound to mature? I must admit amongst the three nylon strung guitars I have built the one that sounds the best is the non-matched but 25 year old 'set' I bought from a maker who said it was spare. The Grade 7 set I bought from an English company (not LS) had little high frequency response and resonance but I assumed it was because I am not skilled in getting a top to sound good anyway. Maybe it was because the wood was not seasoned?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 3 2013 17:10:31
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to El Burdo) 
Serious woodworkers should purchase a wood moisture meter, of which there are several kinds. I have an inexpensive one (about $25 US) that has two metal prongs that you stick into a part of the wood that will not be seen or not be used. A digital display tells the moisture content. You may not know the equilibrium moisture content of your wood (the level you want), but no matter; you keep checking until it is stable, then it's ready for use.

I have used wood that I bought totally green and wet--it was quite literally more water than wood. I resawed it into usable pieces for guitar backs and sides, stickered it so air could circulate, and because it was Port Orford cedar and stank like hell I left it outside on my back porch for a year and then brought it into the workshop for further drying. It has been used in some of my best guitars. It came like this:





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 3 2013 18:12:19
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to El Burdo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

It's a bit depressing to find that the wood I have just bought (from Madinter) needs to be left for 5 years. I guess you mean for it to be at the end of its stabilising process? What happens if a guitar is built with wood that has not been left for long enough? Will it deform, or will it take a few years for the sound to mature?

Wood slowly stabilizes and hardens as it air dries. If you build with uncured wood you're risking warping and checking problems. An easy test to verify if top or back wood is cured is to lay it in direct sunshine for a few minutes and see if it warps. Any sign of cupping or twisting should be a warning to you. Of course building guitars is always a guessing game some wood simply will not stabilize no matter how many years you wait and some pieces cure very rapidly. I wouldn't consider using a top without 4-5 years of cure. Spanish Cedar and cypress need less time and other hardwoods can take many years particularly ebony. East Indian RW cures fairly rapidly 4-5 years is usually safe.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 3 2013 18:23:01
 
estebanana

Posts: 9368
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
quote:

I have used wood that I bought totally green and wet--it was quite literally more water than wood. I resawed it into usable pieces for guitar backs and sides, stickered it so air could circulate, and because it was Port Orford cedar and stank like hell I left it outside on my back porch for a year and then brought it into the workshop for further drying.


I bought a bunch of boards of POC in 2001 and had them cut into back and sides sets. Yeah they were openly pungent for a few years while they sat on a high shelf. I have a few left, used all the best ones, but even now when i plane one they still smell like they were freshly cut. POC is amazingly potent when it comes to smell. After a month or two the surfaces oxidize back up and they don't let out s much smell. I have even used what I calculated to be 50 to 60 year old shelves from a demo of a kitchen, fully oxidized brown surfaced lumber, and when cut into it smelled as strong as the day it was cut.

Potentially smelly stuff, makes great flamencos. I just used some remainder ribs for laminated liners. Useful wood.

I don't think I've ever bought brace wood from a dealer or even a lumber yard....thinking...nah, I've gotten all my brace wood from either old houses being torn down or an old quarter of a spruce tree that was for a bass top.

So the lesson for finding ready to use braces at least is to learn what to look for and reclaim it from an old house being remodeled. The trash bin in front of a house being remodeled can be a treasure box of brace woods and other wooden goodies. My latest batch cam from 2x8 tongue & groove planks out of the roof of house built in the 1950's. I am sure it's dry after 50 odd years baking in the summer sun under roofing.

Keep a hatchet and hammer in your car and jump out when you see a house being torn down and start splitting the lumber they throw away. You will look totally maniacally crazy, but if you are thinking about making guitars you are already totally crazy.

It helps to be resourceful, you can even luck occasionally out and find old wood from houses suitable to build tops or backs and sides with. You can get a spruce, redwood or cedar drawer bottom now and then that can make a top. I once found a redwood drawer that could make a single piece top, but it had a darkish small grain turnaround that looked like the birth mark on Gorbachev's forehead. I decided not to use it for guitar top and now in retrospect I wish I had.




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 3 2013 20:20:14
 
estebanana

Posts: 9368
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to beno) 
Who needs tonewood?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=285939531525086&set=a.267391323379907.59714.267391160046590&type=1&theater

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 3 2013 20:39:21
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to beno) 
I strongly disagree with the recommendation to use a moisture meter or to check a soundboard for readiness by putting it in the sun and check for cupping.
Moisture meters will not work on thin timber.
Cupping after exposure to the sun only means that the upper side has lost moisture compared to the lower side, It says nothing about whether the wood has reached equilibrium moisture content in your workshop.
Weighing the board and recording the measurement over a few weeks will tell you if the moisture content has stabilized.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 3 2013 21:47:37
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to Jeff Highland) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

Cupping after exposure to the sun only means that the upper side has lost moisture compared to the lower side, It says nothing about whether the wood has reached equilibrium moisture content in your workshop.


Well Jeff, I'm sure you're correct but this method has always worked for me. Of course we have a humidity and temperature controlled shop and I don't use this test on new wood. I just used this exact method on some guitar wood that I'm selling to an old friend who's getting back into the luthier business. The two tops were 10 years and 30 years old and the East Indian RW sets were 6 years old and none of them cupped at all.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 3 2013 22:45:56
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to Jeff Highland) 
quote:

An easy test to verify if top or back wood is cured is to lay it in direct sunshine for a few minutes and see if it warps


I'll give it a go thank you John, though 'direct sunshine for a few minutes' might be a problem over here in the UK...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 4 2013 23:39:00
 
estebanana

Posts: 9368
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to El Burdo) 
quote:

quote:

An easy test to verify if top or back wood is cured is to lay it in direct sunshine for a few minutes and see if it warps


I'll give it a go thank you John, though 'direct sunshine for a few minutes' might be a problem over here in the UK...


I hesitate to say this now, but you could also warp and ruin a set of backs or tops that way. If they are not dry the last thing I would do is put them in direct sun.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2013 1:26:43
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I hesitate to say this now, but you could also warp and ruin a set of backs or tops that way. If they are not dry the last thing I would do is put them in direct sun.

If they're not dry and unstickered they'll probably warp regardless of whether they're exposed to sunshine or not. I didn't intend to suggest putting green wood in direct sunshine. If one puts panels in direct sunshine and sees the corners start to rise obviously you wouldn't leave them there. Wood that exhibits movement should be stickered immediately and left to age for more years. It's a simple test, you can also put the panels in front of forced air heat vents or under an infrared lamp or next to a hot wood stove and get the same results.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 5 2013 15:39:38
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
quote:

Weighing the board and recording the measurement over a few weeks will tell you if the moisture content has stabilized.


I'm going to do this, now...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2013 0:00:23
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to beno) 
Can't you just use a moisture meter? They have ones that don't penetrate now.

Anecdotally, I had a stack of OSB inside a framed up house and a stack outside in the driveway. It rained over the weekend and both stacks got drenched(the house had only ply on the roof) the sun came out Monday and the top board outside curled up like the witches toes in wizard of oz, top board inside was minor.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2013 1:47:11
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Reliabe tonewood source? (in reply to beno) 
As far as I know, moisture meters will not work accurately on timbers thinner than about 3/4"
As well they only claim about +- 2% accuracy which when you are aiming for around 8% is a big range.
Fine for evaluating larger timbers being dried from green, but not for the thin timbers we use for guitars.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2013 2:45:49
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