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RE: which one do you prefer ? (in reply to Leñador)
You're wrong. It is absolutely applicable. I'm telling you man people shopping for student guitars dismiss the Yamaha outright because it says Yamaha on the label. He's comparing three guitars he knows nothing about and can't play. I wish someone had drilled this advice intoy head in the beginning because I would've had a really good guitar much sooner instead of dicking around and wasting money in the $1k-$3k range like most players in America who don't have access to try many different Flamenco guitars.
RE: which one do you prefer ? (in reply to Leñador)
How many threads on this forum are beginners wondering which mid priced guitar they should get because they don't want to get a cheap guitar but don't want to spend the coin necessary for a responsive and comfortable flamenco instrument. I scream everytime just get the Yamaha and start playing. 99% of Flamenco beginners couldn't pick out a great instrument on their own if you hit them over the head with it. Best not to over think it or overspend and get your technique and ear up to the level where you have preferences and taste and perhaps money enough to pick out an instrument that is really suited to you individually.
RE: which one do you prefer ? (in reply to Leñador)
I understand.. when someone asks you "hey, since you're going to the store, could you bring me some cheap strings for my throw around guitar? thanks!"... you still show up with the Hannabach's and have an argument with the person who just wanted a pack of no name cheap strings.
You're right man, I rest my case.
edit: Sure, much better to wait five years to buy a great guitar than to buy one right now and spend the five years playing.
RE: which one do you prefer ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
Ok you're clearly missing my point. My point is to get the cheapest thing that's reliable or the expensive one that is world class. The middle of the road flamenco guitars are not worth the money. I'm not talking about strings or cars. I'm only talking about guitars. And if you forget my main point was that its the thick polyurethane finish that kills those guitars. If you stripped that finish off of one of those Cordobas or Albambras I'll bet dollars to donuts it'll sound better and be louder.
My point was precisely to get the cheap yamaha and spend those five years saving for your dream guitar, but it'll likely be much shorter since you saved so much money than someone who bought say one of those peghead Cordobas people spend close to a grand on. For example.
Look I realize its not my points but where I'm making them that is irking you guys. Wrong thread for what I'm saying. But to everyone who doesn't want to address my advice on the merits, go try out these Yamahas flamencos, your jaw will drop and you will be stunned by the sound and feel. Just like my teacher was, a pro player here in NYC, who is now buying one to use as his motorcycle guitar instead of his '66 Conde or Glenn Canin Negra.
Believe I'm not making this up. Those Yamahas are spectacular they really have no business sounding that good and costing so little.
RE: which one do you prefer ? (in reply to Leñador)
You seem to fail to understand that not everyone lives in America and if you can get a yamaha for around 300 USD, thats cool... but here in Europe it costs the equivalent to 600 USD, would you buy it? I guess if you say "yes" you would be contradicting your last post.
Besides the price, not everyone likes yellow, or yamaha, or whatever..
RE: which one do you prefer ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
I already conceded your last point. You are right on that count. But man I swear a lot of potentially good guitars are ruined when they are encased in that plastic finish. The trebles always sound completely dead and the g string especially sounds tubby and plasticky. You guys know exactly what I'm talking about. From cheap Cordobas to a $3k Hermanos Sanchis those thick poly finishes kill almost any chance for nuance responsiveness or volume from anyone save the best players. But those guys can make a shoebox and a broom sound like a conde.
And shopping for cheap guitars based on looks is a big mistake. When it comes to the cheapies try a bunch because there are some gems in every batch. And while you are trying them close your eyes or even better take a good player with you if you can and do some blind tests. I'm almost always surprised when my friends and I do this in the shops here.
RE: which one do you prefer ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
Actually when it comes to women I stay away from the really low end ones and the really high end ones (for the obvious reasons). Unlike guitars, with women the sweet spot is somewhere in between.
RE: which one do you prefer ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
Yes Rui - I am very happy with mine although some of the comments that other people have made recently in this thread maybe I am not the one to ask!!! My teacher also thinks it is a good guitar.
It is a factory made guitar and the price point is aimed at beginners who want something to grow with. I don't pretend to be knowledgable about this stuff in fact most of what I have gleaned has been from talking to people who know guitars (not necessarily flamenco) as well as here on the forum and other people who play both flamenco and just classical guitar.
From what I can gather everyone needs to develop their own personal style. One guitar that one person may swear black and blue that it is the HG of all guitars for flamenco may sound very poor in another players hands. This does not mean the guitar is bad or that the player is mediocre...It is like a relationship...sometimes it just does not work out no matter how wonderful the two halves are
I think it is always best to hear the guitar before buying...I did that with my alhambra in fact I was prepared to spend more on my guitar but I settled on the 4f because the sound was really quite "flamenco" to my very green musical ears. I am not sorry I bought this guitar..the model above also sounded nice but did not speak to me like this one did...so yes I am happy with the 4F and I think that (leaving individual guitars of the model aside) that my experience with the 4F is go for it....It will be your best friend for your first few years :)
And just for the record the orange finish makes it look awesome! My next guitar is going to be the same colour:)
RE: which one do you prefer ? (in reply to Leñador)
Exactly. To me, one should get what ever makes him/her happy. If you can try all the models, great... if you cant but there's a good exchange policy, awesome.. if you have nothing to chose from and are stuck with a 50€ adapted classical guitar like the gitano kids all over youtube, thats ok too.
If you're buying something just because someone said it was the best for you, thats ok if you are at a level where you dont know what you want/dont want... but if you already know what kind of guitar/color/brand/etc you want, you'll probably regret getting something else and end up not playing that much because you wont be happy.
Ive played many Alhambras over the years and Ive had yamaha equipment. I know Iam not getting a french polished luthier made guitar and neither do I want it right now. I also know that I wouldnt be happy with a guitar that says "yamaha" or has the yamaha symbol at the headstock, nor do I want rosewood fingerboard guitars or matte finishes...
Its just weird how there's people who come to a "admira vs alhambra vs rodriguez" post to favour something else in this manner... one thing is to say "check out the yamaha too", another is what just happened here.
RE: which one do you prefer ? (in reply to Leñador)
Personnaly in that price range I would like to try a 213F' P. Castillo. It's a new brand but eventually they're cheaper than the 4F and maybe as good or superior to alhambra (speculative thought here).
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
RE: which one do you prefer ? (in reply to Leñador)
The Alhambra arrived a few hours ago.. and it has ebony, which the Paco Castillo doesnt. The 4F model was designed by the guy at PC so they might even be similar lol
Iam setting up the guitar and I have to say that Iam amazed.. The guitar is thin, the measurements at the website are way off. The finish is perfect, fretwork, even the rosette looks awesome.. from the pics on the internet I thought it looked like crap (green and white) but in person it is very different.
The only thing that I didnt like right out of the box is that the side of the fretboard as lacquer too but that is easily fixed if I decide to do so. It is also very light in weight, nice
ORIGINAL: Elie keep in mind guys that you're comparing a Spanish guitar to a non-Spanish one, this should have some value i guess.
With regards to marketing, pricing, and resale value for the average buyer, a Spanish-made pedigree does carry some value. Most buyers will prefer to purchase a flamenco guitar that is made in Spain and will be willing to pay some premium for it. That's the reality, in my humble opinion.
With regards to the actual performance of comparable models (solid-top with laminate bodies) in roughly the same price range ($300-$500 in the US market), my experience has been that it makes no difference whether the instrument came from a Spanish factory or from Yamaha's factory in China (or Taiwan previously).
The Cordoba 30F and the older Yamaha CG171SF were two readily-available and competing models at the time when I was shopping for my first flamenco guitar. The 30F was made in Spain (supposedly contracted to Alhambra I was told). After playing about 3 of each, I concluded that the CG171SF was the better instrument in tone and quality and it cost $100-$125 less.
I did also hear of Jason McGuire's advice to just buy a Yamaha. This was after I had bought mine. His recommendation was to buy it IF you cannot afford a much better instrument at the present.
At the time, I can only assume that his definition of a better instrument would have been the $1500-$2000 Montalvo guitars made in Paracho that were sold by The Berkeley Music Exchange where Jason picked-up some of his earlier flamencas.
There is a plausible argument to be made that "the Spaniards understand tone better" than the Chinese as was once told to me by a luthier who imported and sold $1800 blancas that were made by Prudencio Saez. I could certainly accept that argument for some mid-range factory guitars like the Esteve-Hernandez Professor series and certainly for the higher end instruments. I don't think it applies at all to the lower-end instruments.
Note that I'm being specific to Yamaha here only because they've been transparent about their manufacturing processes and because their instruments are made by their fully-owned subsidiaries.
Other brands like Miguel Rodriguez y Hijos and Cordoba (for their Iberia line) contract their guitars out. I think I know which factories they are coming from but I haven't gotten a confirmation from reliable sources.
BTW, among your three choices, I voted for Alhambra. It's my opinion that their factory processes are among the best for guitars that are made in Spain.
In case anyone is interested, here's a tour of the Yamaha factory in China where the lower-end instruments are made. Yamaha has a higher-end series but those are still made in Japan.
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Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area
RE: which one do you prefer ? (in reply to Sr. Martins)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rui Martins You seem to fail to understand that not everyone lives in America and if you can get a yamaha for around 300 USD, thats cool... but here in Europe it costs the equivalent to 600 USD, would you buy it?
Rui makes an important point.
I generally don't recommend Yamaha to friends who are in the European Union. The VAT makes them uncompetitive against guitars imported from Spain. I point them to Esteve or Alhambra for lower-end models.
Here in the US, Yamaha is clearly a dominant player with incredible market presence in all music instruments. That, among other factors, gives them advantages.
How much did my CG171SF cost me? Under $280 and that included almost 9% of California sales tax. This was below the normal street price of $329 at the time and the shop owner still able to make a profit.
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