Douglas Fir

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Douglas Fir

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aqualibguitars

Posts: 28
Joined: Jan. 28 2012

Douglas Fir

Hello friends
this is my 1st post in this forum
im rahoul from india an amatuer classical and acoustic guitar builder.
planning to build one flamenco soon
my question is that
can we make guitar with douglas fir back and sides ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 18:32:03

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

Can't wait to see what the Jedi masters have to say about this, I'd love to have a flamenco with doug fir back and sides if it was possible, I build houses with it and feel like I have a special connection to it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 19:02:02

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

Yes, you could possibly make the entire guitar out of Douglas Fir, aside from bridge and fretboard. It's not clear that it would be ideal, but it is possible to find very fine- and straight-grained DF that is suitable for instrument building. DF has probably been most successfully used in carved-top instruments, however. It is popular in some circles in the bluegrass mandolin world.

I wouldn't be adverse to building a DF blanca if prompted hard enough

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 19:23:02

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

Yes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 19:25:36

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

if prompted hard enough = $$$

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 19:26:59

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

if prompted hard enough = $$$

Yes, there would be monetary incentive involved.

There is a mandolin builder in the area here who is apparently a follower of the DF mandolin school and whose identity I don't know, but a local yard stocks his 8/4 QS fine grained DF for him. I've resawn a few back, side and top sets from this wood and would actually like to see what it produces in guitar form - I've been intending to put one together to see, but time is short and it just hasn't happened yet. That's OK - sets are seasoning!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 19:37:34

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

I don't see why not. It would probably be pretty good. I've thought about it myself many times. I've got a friend who made some nice lutes with Doug Fir staves.

And welcome here. I think you are the only Indian luthier on the Foro.

Can you send us some Rosewood?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 20:31:33

aqualibguitars

Posts: 28
Joined: Jan. 28 2012

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to estebanana)

yes. i think im the only indian luthier
i sell indian rosewood to luthiers.
but i think its not proper place to discuss
u can pm me for ur requirements

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 20:44:02

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

I have used some Port Orford cedar that I think had a very similar texture and density, with excellent results.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 20:59:11

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

quote:

yes. i think im the only indian luthier
i sell indian rosewood to luthiers.
but i think its not proper place to discuss
u can pm me for ur requirements

It's ok to build and sell stuff, just show your own work once in a while. There is a classified section too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 22:08:52

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

nick gibbs, author of the real wood bible, has good things to say about pseudotsuga menziesii (douglas fir) and the physical properties are in the ballpark of cypress. another cypress alternative which has a very cypress look to it is liriodendron tulipifera (tuliptree--tulip poplar). the only issue with douglar fir might be the availability of getting quartersawn blanks, especially outside of the usa where the tree grows.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2013 10:55:03

mlau

Posts: 12
Joined: Jan. 26 2013

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

quote:

nick gibbs, author of the real wood bible, has good things to say about pseudotsuga menziesii (douglas fir) and the physical properties are in the ballpark of cypress. another cypress alternative which has a very cypress look to it is liriodendron tulipifera (tuliptree--tulip poplar). the only issue with douglar fir might be the availability of getting quartersawn blanks, especially outside of the usa where the tree grows.

Doug fir should work.

Especially go for clear, old growth. It's hard and strong as hell! Old timers complain that it's impossible to drive nails through.

http://www.oregonwildwood.com/ (no affiliation).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2013 2:11:04

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to mlau)

I spent a few years volunteering for Habitat for Humanity and wow, many of those old homes were built with old growth Douglas Fir, full dimensional lumber. You could barely pull a nail out with a standard framing hammer! On the stuff we re-used, it was difficult to drive a 16 penny nail it was so hard...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2013 21:26:37

changue

Posts: 187
Joined: Aug. 31 2010
From: London

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to sig)

I used to be a woodcutter (lumberjack). When you fell Douglas Fir they'll near enough always shatter when they hit the ground - sometimes just the top, sometimes the whole thing.

I doubt if this helps our Indian friend at all, but I thought I would (ahem...) chip it in.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 12:29:11

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

What kind of a premium would this add to a guitar?(cost over regular price) Is the wood even available ready for guitar building.............?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 21:35:19

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to Leñador)

I'd say it's readily available, but that probably depends on location. Tonewood suppliers rarely carry it, so it depends on having the right lumberyard close by. What I have in hand comes from 20 minutes away.

I realize I didn't answer your question. I'd say no premium - it's no more expensive than any other standard wood. Unless you luck onto a tonewood supplier who has it, you need to be ready to resaw it yourself.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 22:00:56

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

quote:

I'd say it's readily available, but that probably depends on location. Tonewood suppliers rarely carry it, so it depends on having the right lumberyard close by. What I have in hand comes from 20 minutes away.

Gotcha thanks Jim! so it depends which builder you choose to build your guitar. In my case I would probably pick a builder in the western portion of the US, seems like if you could get DF anywhere it would be the west is that a fair assumption?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 22:07:54

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

Doug Fir will make a guitar for sure, but there are difficulties.

Doug Fir is one of those woods which is prone to ripping along the grain, especially if it is thin. So ribs cracking could happen more than another wood.

It is also tough to bend at the waist, just because some wood is more stubborn than others to heat it and get it in the 'plastic' state where the cells walls are maleable.

Customers will think they are getting inferior wood because Doug Fir is more common than many fine up priced woods.

If I were to use Doug Fir I wood mainly think about it for Early instruments like Vihuelas and Baroque guitars and use it for multi pieced backs in place of Yew. If I were to make it into a standard Torres style guitar, classical or flamenco, I would seriously consider cross grain reenforcement for the ribs. I would use fabric strips or continuous linen swatches hide glued to the ribs to keep them from breaking. Or I would laminate them with an interior veneer or two like maple or poplar.

You can get very nice kiln dried vertical grain Doug Fir at high end lumber yards. t is sold as dimensional lumber or stair treads and can be found in widths that would allow them to be resawn into full width back halves.

My speculations on Doug Fir, the thing uppermost in my mind when I think about this Fir for a full size guitar is length wise rib cracking. Other than that I think it would make a guitar. Mileage will vary according to your knowledge of how to build.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 22:15:05

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

quote:

You can get very nice kiln dried vertical grain Doug Fir at high end lumber yards. t is sold as dimensional lumber or stair treads and can be found in widths that would allow them to be resawn into full width back halves.

Yeah, I use it for window sills and post cladding and all kinds of stuff in mid-century and modern houses. I didn't know if you guys could use wood that's that new. I really like the way it looks when it's clear A VG and just think it would be novel to have a guitar out of it but it sounds like a very tricky proposition, in other words, mucho mas $$$ for the trouble of working with it.
Thanks for the info Este banana!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 22:21:43

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

A VG and just think it would be novel to have a guitar out of it but it sounds like a very tricky proposition, in other words, mucho mas $$$ for the trouble of working with it.

I think it would make a good looking guitar and be as Ethan said more like Port Orford in character. Maybe slightly 'pingier'.

I would cut it from the kiln dried wood and then let it set longer. I have old planks of KDVGDF..ha.

It would also French polish beautifully and grow ever more golden a luscious as it ages. One more thing col about about the Firs, the reason they are so tough when they are aged is because they harden as they age. This is called 'Case Hardening' in the carpenter- lumber trades. It happens as part of the natural oxidation drying process that fir goes through. If you nail together framing with 2x4's that are not totally dry in the center the wood will dry more n the outside an less n the inside setting up tension between the outer and inner areas. That is the first case hardening that occurs when you cut Fir and dry it fast. If you nail it together in that state than then come back 50 tears later when the board is dry, it dried in the position and grabbed the nails in tension. But Fir also seems to just simply gets harder as it ages in addition to the case hardening after the mill. You know how it is when you use your fingernails on fresh Doug Fir and old dried Doug Fir in a house. The fresh nail marks and the old stuff will be harder and tougher. That goes beyond the first round of regular case hardening.

As a fir body instrument would get older the wood may continue to case harden and become lighter and more dense or harder. I have a theory, which is only my own speculation and is not proved, but that the Spruces and other conifers used in guitars and violin making also to certain extent continue harden, but they do so to a lesser extent than Doug Fir, which can really get tough after 50 to 75 years. I've thought what if one of the reasons old violins sound great or different than younger wooded violins, is because the spruce hardens and lightens tiny bit as it gets older?

If only those old Italian boys from the 17th and 18th centuries had written down the density and weights of the tops right before they glued them on we might know.

Suffice it to say I'm not the only one who would want that information. And you can be sure a Doug Fir guitar will be much harder to pull the nails out of in 60 years.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 23:06:48

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

quote:

KDVGDF

Hah, just for the wood nerds :)

I'm liking the idea, I've definitely seen the effects of case hardening on older houses when we do remodels, studs turn into Ipe! I'm still about a year out from getting a luthier made gee tar, I hope you're still in Cali at that point man!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 0:43:50

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

I'm still about a year out from getting a luthier made gee tar, I hope you're still in Cali at that point man!

I'll be in Japan, but it only costs $130.00 to ship via Japan Post from where I will be to California. And I will have investigated and bought the Japanese woods I'm looking at in woods dealers shop in Osaka. I may even be relaxed by then.

But this inspires me to pack some Doug Fir for the heck of it. I woud like to try it as a classical. Can always keep it for myself.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 1:19:24

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

KDVGDF

Hah, just for the wood nerds :)

I've been to a lumber yard or two.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 1:22:31

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

quote:

I may even be relaxed by then.

Awe, that's too bad, I like the edge

$130???? From Japan??? Craziness......then again it'd be a good reason to go to Japan!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 1:57:44

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

Stephen,

Do you think that there would be a great deal of difference in side bending using fine-grained wood compared to the more usual construction grade wood? I'm getting intrigued now, but I'm thinking that I'd like to use wood with coarser grain for back and sides and finer grade stuff for the top, for a little visual contrast. I've never tried to bend any of it yet.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 2:07:48

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

The kiln will have more to do with how easy it bends, then grain count.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 2:40:19

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to Jim Kirby)

quote:

Do you think that there would be a great deal of difference in side bending using fine-grained wood compared to the more usual construction grade wood? I'm getting intrigued now, but I'm thinking that I'd like to use wood with coarser grain for back and sides and finer grade stuff for the top, for a little visual contrast. I've never tried to bend any of it yet.

I've heard of some guys making Fir tops with good results, but it seems a tad heavy. If it were me I would make the Fir top separately on a rosewood or Cypress body and use a Spruce top on body. That way you could judge better what is going on because you have familiarity with the the body wood or the top wood. I would get confused about what is happening if I made the whole guitar of Fir.

At .070 or 2. whatever mm Fir sides should bend with a silicon blanket. Just have a try a few tests. I would also not choose too fine or too wide a grain for the body, but something with grain not wider than 1/4 or 5/16 inch. But that is just me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 2:58:47

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Awe, that's too bad, I like the edge $130???? From Japan??? Craziness......then again it'd be a good reason to go to Japan!

Iim going crazy finishing my current orders planning to move to a place where I don't speak very much of the language. But I have a wonderful sweet girlfriend who will help it all happen. She's kind of an angel actually.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 3:01:35

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Douglas Fir (in reply to aqualibguitars)

I remember someone doing some testing on DF soundboards. For its weight, DF has a lower stiffness then spruce along the grain, but is stiffer across it. I thought about trying it out once for a top, how I'd just make it a little thinner and use a parallel bracing scheme. Then came the day when I got to actually handle some nice DF that was cut into tops. The tops were sanded smooth, about 6mm thick. Sliding a top off the stack felt like rubbing two sheets of glass together, when I held it and tapped on it, the DF felt like a sheet of steel. I decided it was just too different, and I was just starting out having only made 4 guitars at that time.
The two main reasons I'm not keen to use it for a top are:

1. Although it can be very stiff it lacks the elasticity of Spruce.
2. It's so freaking hard that it may come out sounding a little too metallic.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 15:16:49