Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops.

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por medio

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009

Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops.

Hi again all. Picking up the guitar again and getting back with the local cantaor after almost two years of hiatus.

She wants to try Buleria de Jerez. I'm going through Youtube and listening a whole lot and practicing accompanying. But the major issue that I'm having is how at times the singer finishes in "half compas" (is remate the correct terminology?). This is quite difficult to follow especially if I'm trying to follow it for the first time.

I guess the question is, what kind of tips would you give me to really get a good hang of this? Just keep listening and practicing more until I get used to the cante and it's patterns? I've been looking into lots of Canelita clips and gosh he's good.

And in the real world the guitarist and singer actually work out beforehand when they would do half-compas? My understanding is not and the singer just does whatever he feels like and it's upto the guitarist. But surely at times they must go,
"when I sing Ai ai ai after this letra let's finish at 6".

Thanks again in advance.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2013 4:27:23

davidheis_24

Posts: 134
Joined: Feb. 4 2011

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Sep. 10 2013 23:54:25

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2013 5:09:16

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops. (in reply to por medio)

quote:

Just keep listening and practicing more until I get used to the cante and it's patterns?

Yes. Nobody's counting, at least not with numbers, and it's not arranged beforehand although beginners might do that. If you need to count, silently keep track of the six-beat cycles (beats 12-1-2-3-4-5 and then 6-7-8-9-10-11 felt as foot taps on the even-numbered beats). With that rhythmic context in mind, listen to recordings to see what the guitarist does toward the end of each cante to make the last line of verse fit the pattern.

quote:

I've been looking into lots of Canelita clips and gosh he's good.

You'd do well to listen to older stuff, too. Terremoto padre with Manuel Morao is the logical starting point.

There should be lots of information on this subject in the forum archives.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2013 7:36:54

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops. (in reply to por medio)

quote:

"half compas" (is remate the correct terminology?)

"medio compas" try searching the foro, there are many discussions about it.

quote:

..the singer just does whatever he feels like..

Yes, but it's not completely random. Often singers have their way of phrasing letra or ways in which they improvise so I find for learning purposes it has been very helpful to play for the same singers so that I have a good idea about what they might do. Then it's very enjoyable to play for unheard singers/letras, listen, follow, try to hit the right tone at the right time; getting the resolution right is important, this can be a place where a medio compas happens.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2013 7:51:08

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops. (in reply to por medio)

quote:

ORIGINAL: por medio

Hi again all. Picking up the guitar again and getting back with the local cantaor after almost two years of hiatus.

She wants to try Buleria de Jerez. I'm going through Youtube and listening a whole lot and practicing accompanying. But the major issue that I'm having is how at times the singer finishes in "half compas" (is remate the correct terminology?). This is quite difficult to follow especially if I'm trying to follow it for the first time.

I guess the question is, what kind of tips would you give me to really get a good hang of this? Just keep listening and practicing more until I get used to the cante and it's patterns? I've been looking into lots of Canelita clips and gosh he's good.

And in the real world the guitarist and singer actually work out beforehand when they would do half-compas? My understanding is not and the singer just does whatever he feels like and it's upto the guitarist. But surely at times they must go,
"when I sing Ai ai ai after this letra let's finish at 6".

Thanks again in advance.

In the case of buleria it's not really about the singer or the dancer even, it's about the GUITARIST. tHat means you either play a half compas, or you square it off...it's up to YOU.

Now, that being said there is a time and place more appropriate than not for it, it depend how well you understand how the chords fit to the melody, but it is in no way wrong to square things off all the time. The nice thing about half compas is the opposite thing...you can cut things in half as you feel like, and in almost all cases you do that because it feels comfortable to do so. If it is NOT comfortable then you have learned compas wrong to begin with and that goes back to me going on and on and on and on and on that when learning bulerias (and other palos) you should NOT COUNT...as it may force your internal phrasing to be bound eternally to square compases such that any half compas encounters are "strange" to you. THat's no good....the very first time you learn basic buleria it should be understood the see saw effect of the symmetric 6's phrasing such that groups of 6's are interchangeable, disposable, repeatable, or superimposable at any time during buleria, and one need never to count or think about it much.

THe first place to look at deliberately forcing half compas is the LAST line of verse for any letra. IN most cases the feeling of the singing starts from 12 (or specifically the contra beat between 11, 12) with the last line of verse. THe guitarst here has the option to make it feel like the singing had started between 5,6 instead by the way you close to the A chord. (por medio). You either close on 4 (half compas) OR you close on 6 with A, filling up the other half with rasgueado. Pretty simple, and despite what anybody might tell you I swear on my eyes its all YOU.

If you do a half compas there, then the singer may take the extra 6 to repeat the 2nd and 3rd lines of verse...OR they may not care and start in the middle of the compas with the repeated verse in which case you would probably do best with ANOTHER half compas (C7-F) to best match the melody that is shifted. But in my experience singers tend to wait a full compas based on YOU having cut.

Now this is a starting place...of course there will be other times you can choose to cut or extend depending on the timing of the singer, but I promise no matter what happens there can almost always be a way to either square things out or cut in half.

I am gonna make a vid example later today because this issue was asked before and I do find important, and just felt it would not have been understood back when cante accomp. thread was hot. You can practice what I describe with many of the cante examples we had...just keep in mind the singer is NOT reacting to you with pre recorded tracks so it won't be exactly the same, but at least a starting point for practicing alone at home.

(EDIT... I make it sound like to square things you always have to round up with rasgueado...not always the case as sometimes where you would WANT to do a rasgueado answer it WOULD be an extra 6...in those cases, with no thought involved you simply dont' to rasgueado and continue from 12 normal compas strumming in that sense "squaring it off" again).
Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2013 12:46:46

por medio

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009

RE: Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops. (in reply to Ricardo)

Thanks heaps guys. I'm thankfully past the stage of counting so it ain't too bad. But I'm still so used to being in 12s it does feel unusual.

And it's good to know that it's actually upto the guitarist to a certain extent - cos that's what it felt like often in the videos as well.

I'll search the forum again later on to have a good read and go back to the cante thread to have a few practices. I'll put it up so I can see what you guys think.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2013 19:58:25

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops. (in reply to por medio)

In case anybody was following this, we both put examples on page 23 of cante accompaniment thread. I find it an interesting subject anyway.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2013 20:08:53

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops. (in reply to Ricardo)

This is a good example of where it seems appropriate to play an extra medio compas:

(The line starting 1.03) "Que ellos se crian..." La Negra ends on 10 waits a compas then "...y dios las junta
Mamaita mia las malas lenguas" ends on beat 4 and the guitarists make that a 10 but they obviously already felt it coming from what she was doing (i.e. not closing at the 10 instead singing across 10,11,12 and resolving melody later). So this seems appropriate because La Negra made that close on 4 though it could be squared if you wanted?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2013 22:22:09

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops. (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

This is a good example of where it seems appropriate to play an extra medio compas:

Yep. An she is not really "jerez style"...but of course Moraito's way to play is. At times you might notice the two guitars doing quite different things....where as in jerez two guitars often sound as one. It's all good of course.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 7 2013 22:35:07

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops. (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

she is not really "jerez style".

I know Antonia La Negra is born in Algeria, what is her cante style called? I notice on youtube she often has Jerez guitarists e.g. Nino Jero.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 9:00:37

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops. (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

she is not really "jerez style".

I know Antonia La Negra is born in Algeria, what is her cante style called? I notice on youtube she often has Jerez guitarists e.g. Nino Jero.

I consider it sevilla, but I am not so good a making all that distinction. When it's jerez it's obvious...and moron, and utrera, and cadiz...well it's none of those at least.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 11:53:34

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops. (in reply to Ricardo)

Off topic but here is a medio compas por solea. Naranjito sings a copla por caña and closes, Manolo Franco just cuts the compas in half. (3.55)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 13:32:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Buleria de Jerez, half-compas stops. (in reply to orsonw)

Actually, that's not exactly an appropriate spot to make a point about half compas. THat is the part they call the lamento, separate from the letra. most players simply stop compas there altogether and even do a 7 beat phrasing to match the melody. In this case the singer could have repeated a 6's phrase on the G chord, but the guitar had to close with with him. technically the guitar could have made it cuadrao simply by doing the normal 7-10 remate of solea, but the fact he chose not to is not a big deal to me.

More interesting is what happens when actual letras cross the phrasing of solea or extend extra 6s, but it's been discussed so much already in the past.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 15:05:03