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John, I like your guitar a lot. I have a nice set of bearclaw spruce that's going to be paired with flamed maple and possibly a flamed cedar neck one day.
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to ralexander)
Here´s a look into my steelstring guitar before closing the box. As you can see, I glued the two lower braces the wrong way. So I had to chisel, plane and scrape them off and then make two new ones and glue them the right way. If not, it would have been a lefthand guitar, which is not what I want. The body shape is my own interpretation of what is called Orchestra size. The bracing is a copy of a Martin OM and the body debth is the same as that one.
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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to ralexander)
Well, since you basically build a box without a neck, I dont think it matter to much if you glue the front or the back on first. Besides, I know very little about steelstrings and my info, which is various books and internet blogs etc. says, soundboard first, so I glued the soundboard first.
Posts: 1708
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Why would it matter which way the braces slanted?
I know, I know, many classical/flamenco builders think that extra bracing on the treble side strengthens the trebles--but Robert Ruck found that it made no difference which side was reinforced. The vibrations don't know that they're supposed to stay on "their" side.
I know, I know, many classical/flamenco builders think that extra bracing on the treble side strengthens the trebles--but Robert Ruck found that it made no difference which side was reinforced. The vibrations don't know that they're supposed to stay on "their" side.
I think Bob Ruck may have been presenting that particular protocol in general but it does make a difference in some cases to where certain vibrational balance and synergistic communication is necessary, especially with my fine tuning the articulation and voicing of certain strings to get their fullest compliance with performance. But if some players can't hear or feel the difference, then it would make no difference to them.
I know, I know, many classical/flamenco builders think that extra bracing on the treble side strengthens the trebles--but Robert Ruck found that it made no difference which side was reinforced. The vibrations don't know that they're supposed to stay on "their" side.
Its a very good question. I´m not going to say something about steelstrings with x braces etc, because i dont have any experience, but I´ve tried a couple of flamencos that were with the bracing the other way round. left handed Rodriguez classical bracing system (xlight) on a righthanded flamenco guitar.. They were made by Manuel Bellido and they were some of the best of his guitars that I´ve tried and I´ve tried a few.
It taught me that most of all these left/right hand ideas (and some other ideas) are for narrowminded builders who doesnt have the capacity to accept things, that doesnt work the way they think they should, can actually be very good . I respect each builders method, but I dont respect the builders who by some reason have to force other builders to think the way they do. I prefer to have a more open mind and even though I would never build like Bellido, I trust my senses and when something is good, its good and when something works, it works and then my ideas are not worth very much. In the end its all about balance.
Back to the steelstring. I was actually thinking about leaving the braces the way they were, but since I know very little, I found it to be to pretencious to think I knew better than tradition.
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to ralexander)
quote:
They were made by Manuel Bellido and they were some of the best of his guitars that I´ve tried and I´ve tried a few.
I played the Bellido that Antonio Moya owns and it is one of the best flamencos I have ever played. He said it has a slanted asymmetrical brace arrangement. Nothing like conventional fan.
Anders can you describe what the bracing patterns in the Manuel Bellido's looked like? Maybe make a quick sketch?
Here is a bracing top I am experimenting with now. Looks like I drank the Ruck K0ol-aid.
Instead of closing the bottom bout in the "proper" way I decided to do an exact opposite treatment to see what happens. Hey, it's only a top and if it is horrible I can cut it off and re do it. However I doubt it will be horrible because there is precedent to brace this way..Kohno did similar patterns it with good results. The thing to look for when bracing is how does it support the top and how will the the string tension pull it up?
I pay a lot of attention to the side to side cross grain flexibility and how thick the lower bout is behind the bridge and I seem to be getting good feedback from players and guitars with this route. I'm also working to do a controlled collapse of the plate between the bridge and sound hole. So if you have a this concept what does it matter what the braces look like as long as they function to make the structure work?
At the same time on the bench I have a pattern that I drew from Bill Burgess' 1969 Reyes which I have very successfully built, ( although I selfishly call it a Stephen Faulk Blanca when I build that pattern, I believe in the Joe Friday school of guitar making where you change the names to protect the innocent. AKA not plagarizing others names if you learn from their work. ) And this Reyes has seven straight up fans that go from sound hole to tail with no cutoffs. As basic as can be. Both patterns will make good guitars and both will sound like I made them despite the difference in brace arrangements, I predict.
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to ralexander)
quote:
It was the Rodriguez plan that I think Blackshear drew and that Manuel turned upside down and made everything lighter. Very nice guitars.
You mean he built in mirror image on the solera?
Haha- If so I did that by accident once with that slanted bar in the Santos type bracing. It works about the same as the bar slanting towards the trebles as it did towards the basses. No guitarist ever said : "Wait a minute! You're trying to pull a fast one by having that bar go the wrong way!!" No one ever cared or noticed.
Guitarists don't care what the braces look like unless they are crazy neurotic busybodies.
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
Is there a specific reason as to why you did the flatter & fatter braces and why you only did it to those and not the outside braces?
Yes it is because I'm working on opening up the bout under the bridge and I want more cross grain action. I want the top to pull up arched behind the bridge and flatten out in front of the bridge. I'm seeing if I can calculate that into the bracing. I'm influenced by the Australian maker Jim Redgate in that idea. But I don't want a wimpy cross grain flexibility.
Who knows, it's an experiment brought on my looking at Kohno and Ruck and they are pretty good makers. I'm trying to learn something by deconstructing the usual route, which is how I learned a few things in the past. Also because I try to knock myself out of practicing mannerisms, this may not totally work, but at least it puts to rest the nagging in my head about the idea. And if t works I learn something, it it fails I learn something, if what it does is neither here nor there, I learn something.
It's not healthy in my view to let your building get into a groove you can't see out of. Although your regular groove might be good.
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
And if t works I learn something, it it fails I learn something, if what it does is neither here nor there, I learn something.
Totally agree. When I was developing the bracing pattern that I use now the first iteration of it was a pretty radical departure from what people were used to seeing, and certain members of the "old guard" seemed to take offense/ridicule, etc. etc. But I had the same feeling of needing to get certain ideas out of my head and into physical form, and it definitely payed off for me. It helped me get closer to my own style and realizing the sonic ideal that I had in my head.
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
Nice! Are you going to color it all over to match the top and sides?
Thanks Tom, it's totally finished in these pictures and I used super blond shellac all over. In the second picture the side isn't actually as yellow as it looks, just had the overhead light hitting it.
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
It taught me that most of all these left/right hand ideas (and some other ideas) are for narrow minded builders like Mr Blackshear who doesnt have the capacity to accept things, that doesnt work the way they think they should, can actually be very good
Anders, this is the full content of this paragraph that I received in my e-mail. Do you think its wise to keep berating a person whom you disagree with? All I have to say is that the moderator should pay closer attention to your insults, perhaps giving you a final warning about them.
I don't hold to the fact that you are a young builder full of energy and pride, and therefore should be excused for your tirade, and this nonsense is not to anyones liking on this list. Grow up...And will the moderator please help with this uncalled for verbal attack on me.
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras
Why would it matter which way the braces slanted?
I know, I know, many classical/flamenco builders think that extra bracing on the treble side strengthens the trebles--but Robert Ruck found that it made no difference which side was reinforced. The vibrations don't know that they're supposed to stay on "their" side.
I think Bob Ruck may have been presenting that particular protocol in general but it does make a difference in some cases to where certain vibrational balance and synergistic communication is necessary, especially with my fine tuning the articulation and voicing of certain strings to get their fullest compliance with performance. But if some players can't hear or feel the difference, then it would make no difference to them.
_____________________________
Tom,
You openly dissed Ethan in this very condescending reply. Why don't you recognize you bait others and bring these quips your own way with your overbearing attitude? Then you have chutzpah to flip it around on others....???
I was quite interested in what Ethan had to say, but you put a negative spin to his contribution. You are counter productive time after time. No wonder Anders has no patience with you. As soon as someone puts their best foot forward you step on that foot.
Please, please think before you write. And don't cry foul when you bait others.
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras
I think Bob Ruck may have been presenting that particular protocol in general but it does make a difference in some cases to where certain vibrational balance and synergistic communication is necessary, especially with my fine tuning the articulation and voicing of certain strings to get their fullest compliance with performance. But if some players can't hear or feel the difference, then it would make no difference to them.
_____________________________
Tom,
You openly dissed Ethan in this very condescending reply. Why don't you recognize you bait others and bring these quips your own way with your overbearing attitude? Then you have huzpah to flip it around on others....???
I was quite interested in what Ethan had to say, but you put a negative spin to his contribution. You are counter productive time after time. No wonder Anders has no patience with you. As soon as someone puts their best foot forward you step on that foot.
Please, please think before you write. And don't cry foul when you bait others.
If you bother to re-read my post you would understand that I have a difference of opinion with Bob Ruck about this issue. It certainly does not mean that I dislike Ruck's work but that my own experience justifies what I say here.
And I'm sure that Ethan does not take offense at this, as it was not meant as a correction toward him, if you read my post. He was merely repeating what Ruck had to say on this matter.
This is a matter of information exchange by different guitar makers and I resent the fact that Anders always has to jump in with some insulting remark against what I have to say on this forum. I would love to see a more congenial discussion of these differences without some insulting disagreement that has no place with artists of like art.
And to clarify the rest, I have, on occasion, strung a right handed guitar...one in a Santos style, left handed and it was a righteous sounding instrument...so much so that I turned the pattern over and used the opposite to build with after that occasion.
But now, I'm tuning the fan braces so fine that even switching string brands can throw the voicing and articulation off. Since recently finding this out I have put up a disclaimer on my front page website to warn against changing string brands at your own risk.
And this is what I mean when I disagree with a general rule of top vibration, as it goes a lot deeper that just changing right to left hand technique. There are certain nuances involved that characterize each instrument. Being a guitar maker par excellance, you should understand this.
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
And this is what I mean when I disagree with a general rule of top vibration, as it goes a lot deeper that just changing right to left hand technique. There are certain nuances involved that characterize each instrument. Being a guitar maker par excellance, you should understand this.
I appreciate that, but at the ned of the day I'm simply savant who has been abducted by aliens who encoded my brains to make flamenco guitars as a devious experiment on humans.
Let me reframe my sentiment. In reference to Anders' steel string bracing thoughts, Ethan enthusiastically posited a point about vibration not being able to tell the difference between one side of the topography of a sound board from another. When you called upon your expertise to caution that it takes more than this understanding that vibration can't tell directions, you pushed the conversation into an area that was decidedly not germane to the point being made. This is not the first time this has happened or the first time this theme unfolds as your over arching field theory of guitar performance.
The intention of the conversation was to say a bunch of flamenco makers we musing over how steel string guitars were made and pleading humility over an subject they are not versed in. Perhaps your comment wrankled because it was about your method of tuning fan braces which is a world apart from steel string X bracing. But if you know how to fine tune steel string X bracing, there is a big audience who would love to get that information.
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
quote:
I think Bob Ruck may have been presenting that particular protocol in general but it does make a difference in some cases to where certain vibrational balance and synergistic communication is necessary, especially with my fine tuning the articulation and voicing of certain strings to get their fullest compliance with performance. But if some players can't hear or feel the difference, then it would make no difference to them.
You also lost me at 'synergistic'. I'm a smart guy, but it this sounds like voodoo talk. I call that out.
Here is what we know, guitar tops don't adhere to strict theory in how they react to bracing. One can say one does not know which side the blah-blah-blah (name your component) braces are on and how it will effect the sound because of what we heard Bob Ruck say.
Vibration is not 'area specific' let's say, to put it into plain language. In other words a treble vibration does not inhabit one isolated section of the sound board anymore than a bass vibration does, to distill down the Ruck idea into a simple form.
That said here is the rub, when we try to contain or influence certain parts of the soundboard to promote a certain vibration our geographic intuition about what should effect treble and what should effect bass actually to some extent works even though it is a totally anecdotal model to follow. An example would be Santos' use of the diagonal bar to effect treble response.
We see that bar going down to treble side so we think Hey! More treble! right? Maybe. Maybe what is also happening is the whole sound board area is being more controlled because we are changing the active areas of the sound board by closing off a major area an in effect making our 'drumhead' smaller and tighter, but at the same time retaining the same amount of air in the box. If we flip the bar in mirror position we create the same amount of controlled surface area a limit the n the same way, but it goes against our natural inclination towards dividing the top into areas which vibrate according to which string is closest to that area.
But we just came from there, where Mr. Ruck says the whole thing vibrates and vibration does not have brain to tell it to go here or there. It moves to where it feels limitation imposed by braces and rim.
So that means what? That braces could be more changeable than remaining with the Torres kite scheme. Mirror images of asymmetrical systems of bracing can effect in much the same way as the first intuitive treble bass oriented pattern. We can flip-flop asymmetrical patterns and still make good guitars. It has been proven. Cited was Manuel Bellido.
So in theory this all means that the top is like vibration; it does not care how it is braced so long as it gets what it needs in terms of flexibility, weight, stiffness, edge treatment, bridge, arching, thickness etc. We know for fact that several systems make good guitars, but what we have to apply in each case is understanding of how to make all those attributes I listed come out of a bracing pattern.
There is more than one way to optimize each system and more than one way to optimize Torres bracing. The understanding of how to do that is often not translatable into language because it is an inner language of tactile experience that guides the brain and hand in telling how much gets left in or out of the process. Language can often only express an abstraction of what is really going on with the inner process of voicing a guitar. It is like a painter throwing brush strokes, it can either be done illustrationally by following a formula or it can be done directly through the nervous system by hands on contact with the material. And granted mechanical means of guidance like tone generation testing and weighing parts can all play a factor to the betterment of your work.
In the end you are either building by rote making illustrations of brace patterns or you are engaging your nervous system and transmitting your inner intelligence to the work. The problem is that everyone has a different and personal way if transmitting that intelligence, that is for the most part internal and non linguistic.
That is my attempt at explaining something I can't explain, but using the plainest language I have at my service.
RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to ralexander)
Too funny
Not only can you do a mirror image but you can put the fan upside down and the sound will still find its way out of that hole thingy. I remember reading somewhere once about bridge design, making the bass side wider or heavier to enhance bass response. Funny as a child I don't remember the fat kid on the other end of the seesaw moving any slower then me
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