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Guitar making is becoming a racket.
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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 RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to tele)
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quote:
The problem starts when some people are doing guitars just because they think it's easy money,
Ha.. that's a good one there 
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If a racket is defined as doing business based on dishonesty then yes, that does exist in guitar making. Andalusian guitars comes to mind.
But the Spanish invented "guitar making as a racket". Nowhere will you find more dishonesty in the business of guitar making than with Spanish makers and factories... just take a stroll though Granada and you will find, on the one hand, some the finest classical and flamenco guitars being made anywhere, in the source where the tradition and culture of those instruments was born, and on the other hand, a ton of tourists and even relatively knowledgeable guitarists being supremely scammed into buying factory instruments that they believe were made by a master craftsman.
I remember recently the disappointment that "El Tortuga" felt when everyone on here informed him that his "Barba" was actually straight from Valencia.
I don't think we non-Spanish guitarmakers have the luxury of running a racket. We actually have to build a reputation based on producing great instruments and letting the word of mouth spread, and it is most definitely NOT an easy way to make a living. If you have a return policy it would be basically impossible to scam any discerning guitar buyer (which is basically all there is in that price bracket). Not only that, as an independent, one-at-a-time guitarmaker, if you produce an instrument that isn't up to the standard of the buyer, well..maybe you don't eat that month 
Not much racketing going on among independent luthiers IMO.
People spouting lots of BS on the internet? Oh yeah, plenty of that....
And it ain't goin' away as long as forums exist.
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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
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Date Jan. 2 2013 22:10:25
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
I'm discouraged and as I work everyday at the bench I feel like I'm wasting my time and life. Today anyone can buy the plans ( Reyes Model ) and the tools and be up and running in a few months and make a guitar and sell it. The reason they can do this is because all those who spent years figuring it out discuss these things on the internet and any one with three brain cells left can read it and make a guitar that looks correct. People who spent time learning an waiting for five years before they call them self a maker seem to be getting shafted. I have a friend in Canada who makes killer Torres model classicals , but he has a houseful of them.
Elaborate a little bit, Stephen. I cannot imagine that someone beginning as a luthier who buys the plans (for a Reyes model, for example) and some tools, and after experimenting for a few months, is capable of making a guitar anywhere near the level of quality and refinement of one of your guitars, or that of some other luthiers on this forum. As you state above, he may be able to follow the plans and look stuff up on the internet, and come up with a guitar that "looks correct." But surely there will be a big difference in sound, tone, and playability. It will take him years to reach that level of refinement, just as it took you and others years to reach it.
So what are we really talking about here? Does the newbie price his guitar at the level of a much more refined instrument, and gullible, unknowing people buy it at that price? Or does he sell it at the much lower price it deserves, and people looking for a much cheaper guitar purchase it? In the end, then, are we talking about lack of knowledge of, and appreciation for, a finely-crafted instrument on the part of the consuming public? I guess what I am driving at here is that there will always be a cohort of guitarists who know and appreciate quality. But they are a very small cohort, and once they have one or two instruments, they will be unlikely to consider further purchases. There is a large consuming public, however, who might just want to learn to play guitar and aren't particularly concerned with the craftsmanship that goes into a fine instrument.
I sympathize with you and other luthiers who put your hearts and souls into your work. For you, it is a labor of love. But if my questions and observations above have any validity, I don't know an answer to your dilemma. By the way, when do you plan to make your move with your lady to Japan? I have no idea, but maybe the situation will be different there. Have you looked into Japanese guitar-buying habits and trends? I know there are some who appreciate very high-end quality. Toward the end of his luthiery career, almost all of Gerundino's remaining stock was sold to a Japanese. I imagine there are many who just want a guitar without thinking much about craftsmanship as well.
Hope things pick up for you in 2013, amigo.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 2 2013 22:28:43
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)
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Here is the Reyes guitar I drew from a 1969 Reyes. The design is the same as the famous Reyes drawing that is published. The difference is that is was a stop on the way in my development not an ending place where I make a Reyes model.
Reyes got his inspiration from Santos, because Santos did build this way sometimes. and Santos probably learned this design from some one else, possibly Manuel Ramirez used the same seven fan design without cut of bars. It's pretty cut and dried. So some one is going around claiming this is "Modern" with capital a M design and it's about 100 yrs old. How fracking hoy en dia can you get? Que guasa.
I don't mind people doing what ever they need to do, but sometimes the enormity of the bullshiet gets to me. Like where does it end? I've buiklt the sam guitar and sold it, but I did nto have to wrap myself in the Flag of Reyes, I simply built it because I was studying the masters and he's not the only one. Many of us did this to apprentice through how the important builders worked and now you can just go buy the pan an some tools a have at it without any real historical knowledge. it got me form one place to the next and now I do something that is more my own and with different kind of sound, but everyone one wants a cheap Reyes copy so why want your life making your own guitars?
You can get a Fleta, Reyes, Torres, Santos, Barbero, Smallman or Dammann copy from this one guy.....and they are really cheap, so why would you need anything else because he has mastered all those styles and you can get them for 2000.00.
Why bother anymore.
And you can compare the projection by watching Youtube and make grand sweeping pronouncements about how modern it al sounds.
Nothing is modern.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 3 2013 0:47:26
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El Burdo
Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
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RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)
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Sn. Estebanana - that's upsetting. The views expressed in this forum show that the members have attitudes no different to those expressed in the rest of the world. There are those who believe they are the dharma successors to Hernandez et al and have 'the secret' that evades the rest of us, those who are keen to teach and help and those who are keen to learn and want help, and those who combine all three. There is also an olympic amount of internecine enmity and bitching, that is very tiresome for those without the axe to grind, but absolutely normal as in everywhere else in the world!
There is nothing wrong in seeking knowledge and its aquisition is never less than a good thing. The fact that it is easier to obtain is also not wrong - that it took older generations longer to find sources is historical and is not in itself of any value. They would not even have been able to express their views in the way you have just done! I started making (ha ha) in 89 but gave up, as I don't have the passion. I have the 'keen interest' though and this forum has been invaluable on my return, though sometimes hurtful. That's forums.
It's the use of knowledge that is crucial. There is also no substitute for long, slow cooking in experience putting knowledge in contexts. We all know that. High level luthiery, like music where I (don't) make my living professionally is a meritocracy in the end. You might have got away in the 70s with a few pentatonic licks, but now you have to rise above, to be above. The western world is now full of jazz trained kids who can blow me out of the water - it's not their fault, it's what the world has afforded them and they have taken advantage of it. I am now in my deserved position - but I have the long view, born of my experience. Your friend who has a room full of great guitars needs to market himself now to raise himself above the hoi polloi. If his guitars are better then he will be closer to those who want to buy such instruments, as there are more professional musicians these days, not less. It's a new skill we all have to learn.
It is very difficult to make a self-employed living at all these days so don't think that setting up a coffee shop is going to be the answer. Set up a school instead, teaching what you have, to date, for me on this forum, shown yourself to be brilliant at - that is teaching. Japan will love you. You seem to be tempted to take your ball away - that would be a great loss. For me, you have been helpful, courteous, amusing and knowledgeable.
So, to end rambling, guitar making is no more a racket than anything else. It's a meritocracy and anyone whose work is inferior will not be in your market anyway. Maybe you feel this way as your voice isn't heard from the crowd so loudly? It's to be considered. Anyway, I think you should 'man up' and continue. The grass is unlikely to be any greener and very likely will be browner and scrubbyer. There also isn't any grass in Japan in my experience....just roads. 
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Date Jan. 3 2013 11:51:42
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)
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Stephen, it sucks to hear things are this way for you. I respect the art-based artisans like you who put a lot of yourself into your craft. In America, at least, nearly every livelihood is declining, getting worse, getting shafted, exploited, having the screws put to you. Even in my small circle of non-musician friends, recent periods of unemployment or underemployment have been common. Taxes are going up, things are getting more expensive, work is scarce. It looks like we are taking a long ride to lower living standards, and it won't be fun. Obviously, none of the above applies to the rich, who are getting richer.
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Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Jan. 3 2013 14:39:06
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)
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Whoa!
Well I was bitching about something else, but now that you bring it up.
Anyway I was not even complaining about how much I make, which I assure you is very little for my time. I was complaining about how people feel entitled to start making guitars and throw out a shingle which says 'guitar maker' before they have paid their dues.
Nobody has to pay their dues anymore in order to call themselves something. They just go on the internet and figure a few things out and they become an instant expert. It's bad enough we don't make that much money but to watch other get leg up after you ....never mind.
And plus one to what Anders said about Spanish guitar makers. It's their culture, they started it they can do what they want. The rest of us all the way back to Hauser who copied a Santos are 'Johnny come Latelies'. Those guys lived through lean years and when they got older and ordered some guitars from Valnecia and slipped 2A label in them, that's cool. But amount those older guys there was some pride between a 2A and a hand built guitar. But when Americans do it is bothers me. It bothers me that they build a guitar and all it such and such model. Blech. You there is a such thing as building bench copy of an instrument for someone one, that is different.
I could tell stories about my first teacher who built violin and cello bows. He was a master bench copier. He could copy any French bow reasonably well enough that it would fool experts. But he was honest and he did not try to pass them off as originals, although later dealers did. About twenty years ago I as talking to a bow repairman here who knew my teacher, he complained to me that Mr. Tenney was a liar. He said Tenney would show up with an old French bow like a Pecatte and say that he made. This fellow who has passed away will not be named because the shop he worked in is still around, but Tenney would say "No you're wrong, I did make this." Well when I met the fellow I said t him well he did make those bows, he was really good at copying. I know he made those copies because I sat there watching him do it. There was a huge architectural/artist flat file in Tenney's shop full of rejects where one little thing or another was wrong or the wood had a crack in the interior that was revealed through planing the stick. I used to look at the bows for hours on end.
So Tenney used to go to San Francisco on business and there was a particular dealer who is also gone now that used to wine and dine him real good when he came to town. He would sometimes buy his bows and presumably resell them, as originals or as Tenney bench copies I don't know. I hazard a guess they sometimes passed them as originals. The biggest dealer on the West Coast knew Tenney and asked him to provide him with bench copies of bow frogs to be used as restorations for important French bows when he needed one. He made frogs for Tourte's and Dodd's you name it and they were always top notch. Did the dealer sell them as originals, very likely.
About ten or more yeas ago I was going to go to a bow making workshop, but I was unable to attend at the last minute. I sent a bow along with friend that I had made while in Tenney's shop to ask a question of the person leading the workshop. That person said they did not want to know anything about it after they found out I had copied a Papa Tourte bass bow. I did not find out the reason why my bow was not looked at until last year when my buddy finally told me the real reason is that the person running the workshop was not in favor of helping people make forgeries. Well I never set out to make forgery, I was studying something I had reverence for.
Hilarious how these things can be misconstrued. And here I complain about integrity. It's not my first rodeo when it comes to ethical slime baggery and what your intentions are and how they are perceived. I got to hear plenty f phone conversations and see lots of horse trading in the first shop I work in. The differ is that my teacher stewarded me through it and told not to pay attention to those crooks. He's been gone a long time and I look back on those days as a lot of fun because I was protected from all the sham people, now I have to figure out to ignore them for myself. And if my back would stop hurting and I could play the cello every day it might take my mind off of it.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 3 2013 21:22:49
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