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RE: Must know cante
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srshea
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
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 RE: Must know cante (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
about Tomas Pavon - there seem to be several issues of his stuff;
are they all the same recordings re-packaged?
or different levels of "cleaned-up"?
or are they different recordings, and if so which is better or best?
Yeah, a lot of those “old masters” get reissued in a bunch of crappy, no-frills, incomplete editions. I guess that stuff is probably in the public domain and people just have at it.
What I’ve got is the ‘Obra Completa’, which I think was an “official” commemorative edition organized by the Junta, or whoever, and which I think came with a book. I’ve just got a burned copy of the CD.
The full discography is 21 tracks, so anything with fewer than that’s incomplete. As far as sound quality goes in the varying editions, dunno. All the letras are on the net.
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Date Sep. 1 2012 17:55:08
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srshea
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
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RE: Must know cante (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
but they are "whole" cantes as recorded, no? not just individual letras/verses? I thought Norman's "Top 200" was letras.
Yeah, I dunno, little of both, I guess. I’m just hoping that people will start kicking a few things down and we can see what we’ve got when the dust settles.
Of the stuff I’ve started to list off, a lot of those are “song titles” as they appear on the record labels, and they typically represent the first cante sung on a particular recording.
But, like, Santiago y Santa Ana is a closing cante and will be at the back end of a recording.
Tomas’s ‘Acuerdate Cuando Entonces’ is another closer. He sings it after two soleas de Serneta on a recording with the “song title” ‘Tengo Gusto Tan Colmao'.
I think with any of the stuff that’s listed, if the first cante is the “big one”, the canonical letra that everyone’s supposed to know, then whatever cantes come after it will also be worth learning (assuming we're talking about old, classic recordings.) If you look into Pastora’s ‘Al Guguru’, all that other stuff, ‘Que te Calles, Que te Calles’ etc. is stuff we wanna know.
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Date Sep. 1 2012 18:52:35
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Must know cante (in reply to srshea)
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quote:
You’re talking about De Santiago y Santa Ana, yes? So that one continues to be a big ending cante that everyone does?
Yes, I don't think it was so dramatic when it began to circulate, but over the decades singers found the drama potential and played it up...now, it's hard to imagine it as anything other than an ending.
But that was an example of verse-specific cante. Nowadays more original verses are used, so it's risky business to expect clues from the poetry, especially with younger singers.
I don't think there's any alternative to knowing the cante and training your ear to recognize certain musical paths that signal certain chords.
Having said that, I'm finding out that cante accompaniment isn't just "play the right chord at the right moment", and that in fact fashions come and go. Right now we're moving away from a lengthy period of over-harmonization...Paco gave us all these cool chords, and it became "the more the merrier". But top-notch guitarists are starting to limit the palette. At first you think "ha!...he missed the cambio!"...but then you begin to realize it was intentional, and it even starts sounding good.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Sep. 1 2012 19:04:07
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srshea
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
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RE: Must know cante (in reply to Leñador)
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Here’s something I’ve cut and pasted from an earlier thread ,not because I think it’s any great shakes or anything, but just to show an example of one means of trying to learn about some of this stuff. Typing it out on the Foro was a drag because it doesn’t allow for empty spaces, and what you see here isn’t nearly as useful as what I’ve got on paper. I’ve made little worksheets with 1-2-3, etc spaced out across the page and I scribble all over ‘em, writing out how the cante fits into the compas, the spaces, streched syllables, rushed lines, accents, etc.
-------------valgame dios --no----------le-----------temes------------
A---A7---Bb-----------------X------------A------------Bb-------------X
1----2----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8-----9-----10-----11-----12
-----------
Bb----~---Bb/G--------------X----cierre---------------------------------
1-----2-----3----4-----5-----6-----7-----8-----9-----10-----11-----12
-----------------valgame dios no---------le------------temes-----------
A----A7----Bb-----------------X-----------A------------Bb---------------X
1-----2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8-----9-----10-----11-----12
ni a la ira--------de--------------------undebe--------------------------
Bb----~---Bb/G---------------X----------Bb/G---------Bb------Bb-----A
1-----2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8-----9-----10-----11-----12
------------
A----A9b---A------------------X-----cierre--------------------------------
1-----2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8-----9-----10-----11-----12
-----------------ni a la ira-------------undebe-------------------ni a la
A----A7----Bb-----------------X------------A-----------Bb---------------X
1-----2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8-----9-----10-----11-----12
ira--------------------- de-----undebe------------------------------------
Bb----~---Bb/G---------------X----------Bb/G---------Bb-----Bb------A
1-----2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8-----9-----10-----11-----12
-------- y sin embargo--------------te----asustas-----------------------
A----A9b---A------------------X-----------Bb-----------C7--------------X
1-----2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8-----9-----10-----11-----12
gitana----------- de----mi-----------querer--------------------------
F-----F7---Bb-----------------X------------Bb-----------A (remate)
1-----2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8-----9-----10-----11-----12
So, I know this is a nerdy, white boy way of going about these things and that flamenco is an oral/aural tradition and that this sort of visual representation is lame, and Estela will probably reach into her computer screen and smack me upside the head, but this helps me.
People talk about cante structure, and beginners like me, think “what the hell are you talking about? What does that actually MEAN, structure?” Looking at something like this I can see over how many compas cycles someone sings a cante. I can see how the first line is sung, and that then there’s a pause, and then a repetition of the first line that links to the second line, then another pause and so on. I can see how he stretches some words and syllables and compresses others. I can see how the first two lines get repeated and stretched and fiddled with, and then see that the cambio gets crammed in there at the end. Yes, I could just listen and magically pick an understanding of that structure up, but for me it’s very useful to “see” it.
And of course this is by no means meant to be a “formula” for this cante. It just the way Tomas happened to sing this cante with those letras on that recording. Tomas’s ‘El Pasito Que Yo‘ is the same cante, I think, and if you mapped that one out like this, it would look different. If you mapped out Torre’s ‘Por Ti Abandone Mis Nino‘ it would look really different, much less of the stretching, not so many dramatic pauses, etc (and the melody is a little different too, but that doesn’t make it’s way onto the page.)
So, doing something like this, if you’re so inclined, you can compare the way a singer might sing the same cante in different ways on different occasions, or the different ways in which two singers will sing the same cante. You’ll find similarities and differences, and in parsing out those differences and matching up those similarities you‘ll start seeing patterns emerge, structure, and you’ll start picking up broader concepts, like, that fiddling around and doing various stuff with the first couple lines and then blowing through the cambio is a very general thing, a standard structural detail that you’ll hear over and over.
Again, if you can soak all that stuff up with only your ears then, great. For me it’s very helpful at this stage to take notes and map some of this stuff out.
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Date Sep. 1 2012 20:24:04
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srshea
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
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RE: Must know cante (in reply to Leñador)
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Another helpful “trick” for getting a handle on cante structure is comparing the “written” verse with the verse as it’s sung on a recording. Norman has discussed this a number of times here in the past and I think a bit in the introductory text on his site.
You can make a nice exercise of it both ways. All the stuff on Norman’s site is transcribed as sung verse. So, looking at that you can try to extrapolate the basic three or four lines of verse that comprise the letra, stripping away the repetitions of lines, the extra “ays”, the little “zero verse” additions (kinda the flamenco equivalent of James Brown singing “Good God! Can’t stand it!”), and the gee-gaws and artistic embellishments that singers fill out a performance with.
Going the other way, you can look to a printed letra in a book or on the web, or dig through your CD booklets that include letras. Some liner notes will transcribe the sung verse, others will just have the written verse. Taking the written verse you can listen along to the recording and note how the verse is actually sung, not necessarily doing a whole compas/cante surveyor’s map like the one above, which is more labor intensive, but just writing it out line by line ala Norman’s site.
Written Verse:
Valgame dios, no le temes
ni a la ira de Undebe
y sin embargo te asustas
gitana, de mi querer
Sung Verse:
Valgame Dios no le temes
valgame Dios y no le temes
ni a la ira de Undebe
ni a la ira de Undebe
ni a la ira de undebe
y sin embargo te asustas
gitana de mi querer
Pretty dry stuff, and you’re not going to have the patience to do this sort of thing for everything you listen to, but it’s a useful exercise for when you want to buckle down and really work on particular recording.
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Date Sep. 2 2012 19:26:14
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Must know cante (in reply to srshea)
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quote:
about Tomas Pavon -
The full discography is 21 tracks, so anything with fewer than that’s incomplete. As far as sound quality goes in the varying editions, dunno. All the letras are on the net.
i just got a copy of this, not the Obra Completa, it's a different re-package, "Antologia La Epoca Dorada del Flamenco"
I found some of the letras on the net, on the telefonica.net site, but it doesn't seem to be complete, there are 3 cantes missing completely, 1 each of Fandango, Fandanguillo and Media Granaina
also some discrepancies of name/title;
on the disc there is Fandanguillo de Tomas "Con la Virgen del Pilar" but on the letras site it's a Granaina
Also on the disc Solea de Utrera Y Jerez "Tengo el gusto tan colmao" and on letras site it's Solea de la Serneta (born in Jerez, died in Utrera, so that works out i guess?).
A lot of others on the site are just listed as Solea or Siguiriya etc. and on the disc as Solea de Alcala or Siguiriyas de Jerez, so can i assume the disc is correct?
do you know any other site for the complete letras, address, link?
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Date Sep. 14 2012 21:23:26
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srshea
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
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RE: Must know cante (in reply to mark indigo)
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Yeah, there’s a mixed bag of labeling, some of which is confusing, on various CD issues of this stuff. My CD has ‘A mi mare de mi alma’ labeled “Cantes de Tomas Pavon,” and “Valgame Dios” is rather cryptically labled “Creacion.” The former is Mellizo 1 & 2, and the later is Joaquin el de La Paula 1 & 2, but so far as I understand, in Tomas’s singing of those cantes on those recordings, he does enough stretching and structural/melodic fiddling around for some people to consider them distinct cantes. Which is fine, it’d just be nice if people would label the stuff simply, “Solares de Tomas Pavon” or something instead of useless stuff like “creacion,” which makes it sound like some far out thing that bears no relation to anything at all, rather than simply being his own personal variation on something else.
So, in similar fashion, I’d assume that Tomas did enough fiddling with that ‘Virgen del Pilar‘ granaina for some people to label it “Fandangillos de Tomas.”
My CD labels ‘Tengo el gusto tan colmao‘ as “Solea de Serneta.” On that one he does Serneta 1 & 3, Utrera styles, and finishes with ‘Acuerdate cuando entonces’, Frijones 2, a Jerez style, so that’s your “Utrerea Y Jerez” label. Norman should have all or most of Tomas siguiriyas, soleas, and bulerias por solea broken down on his site, and he discusses some of the stuff about Tomas’s personal versions of some stuff being unique enough to garner separate labels. So you can just poke around there for more detailed labeling instead of scratching your head over whatever vague labels might be on your CD.
As far as filling in the gaps for those missing letras goes, sorry, dunno. I’ve only concerned myself with the solea, bulerias, and siguiriyas for close study so far, so I haven’t yet been troubled by the absence or those fandangos on the letra site. I hope they’re out there somehwere. Aside from plain old google searching to fill in those gaps, some of the nerdier youtubers put the letras, Follow the Bouncing Ball style, on their videos for that stuff. I’ve seen one for ‘Valgame dios,‘ so there might be some for those fandangos.
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Date Sep. 15 2012 0:10:57
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