Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Brokering Gigs
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
  
KMMI77
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
|
 RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to Florian)
|
|
|
quote:
I hate being in the middle like that...whats the point...but in saying this, you are always in great shape, u must a found a great way to make it work, respect to you... with me i just get exhausted and dont practice as much as i should
It's a bit of a compromise being in the middle I know. I'm pretty lucky because I found a job that I don't mind. I'm normally home by 2pm so i still have time to do other things. Some days i have very early starts but most of the time i start around 8am. I work as a delivery driver in the CBD. It suits me because i don't like being in the same spot too long. I get to move around, work alone and listen to flamenco or whatever. I have been doing it for 10 years now so i know all the streets, places to park and loading bays. That takes a lot of the stress out of it.
One thing that surprised me was how much my playing improved when i stopped doing gigs for a while. I was finally able to make changes to my technique over a few months, Instead of practicing in the day and then having to perform at night or a day later. I discovered that it took at least two months of no performance pressure, to forget the old way and develop a new way. After a few months I found that i did not resort back to the old reliably habitual technique. If you know what i mean? I actually moved forward for the first time in years.
When i was doing music full time i found myself becoming depressed. Wasting time and feeling unmotivated. I felt uninspired by the gigs i was doing. It was fun staying up late and sleeping in though 
The music scene is a strange one wherever I've been. Lots of energy sucking politics, luck, hype, who you know and how well one can market themselves involved. Once i saw all that I lost motivation to do it full time. But I did not lose any motivation to continuing playing flamenco. Now i work, do gigs and play for dance classes when i want to. And i still easily have enough time to practice 5 or more hours a day if i choose. Strangely enough i have not noticed the other full time guitarists around progressing any quicker than i do. The downside is i have to go to work in the morning. 
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 22 2012 13:07:10
 |
|
|
Guest
|
|
RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to Florian)
|
|
|
quote:
we need to be each others agent.
i'll start with a marketing profile
Florian coffee mugs-Florian t-shirts-Florian Pale Ale- Florian cologne-glow in the dark Florian condoms [go with the flo]-Florian porn app for ipad-Florian stick on chest hair-....
then we go corporate
the Toyota Florian...
maybe it's a libran trait who knows
anyway the gig was fun
the dancer decided i was worth more than $75 so came closer to the original figure...
in hindsight all this is'nt about the money
had the original figure been $75 i most probably would have done it anyway...
just that feeling of devaluation...
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 22 2012 13:11:02
|
|
Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
|
|
RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to KMMI77)
|
|
|
quote:
I'm sure it will all pay off for you in some way in the long run. Your doing what you love and that's what's important.
thanks buddy, i love flamenco...i dont know if i need to perform it, that i can do without, i am just as happy playing for myself at home ( i am content)...i dont need to perform it at the cost of being homeless and constantly brooke and without and always sacrificing and on the verge of absolute chaos with bills....
if i was the lowest paid, most unskilled waiter (or any lowest paying no skill necessary profession, a street sweeper) and put down the hours they asked of me for promotional, organizing, booking people, flights, answering emails, signing contracts, picking people up from and taking them to the airport and rehearsals and preparation and things involved with this show (not even counting the bulk of it which was my own practice alone at home) and paid me strictly on hours i punched the clock i would still have made double alone what they paid me to share with 6 other people ...which i ended up having to pay myself anyway..
dont worry about me i am a little bitter now cause i am still trying to figure out how to get back into the green...but i will bounce back and exploit their advertising, their name and little event for my own shows like a cheap 2 dollar hooker and take back every cent i lost with them...with interest ! lol its only at the moment my pockets are crying empty
respect to you for not putting up with this bulls*it and politics man, usually i dont either (except this one time)...even without the job on the side and low finances, i dont let it dictate what i do...if i didn't think it was something that's gonna be good and worth seeing, an improvement on our last effort...i was never shy about saying no ...just surviving off money from classes and teaching until the right time or opportunity to do something worth doing...ive done my share of gigs i am not proud off for money lol...i am broke regardless ...might as well do only things i am proud off now that make me feel good....i dont see how i should be expected to wanna play another alegrias now in a restaurant or wedding gig without David singing or even any singer..
your job sounds like the kind of job id love and could handle alongside with playing...some jobs are more compatible than others...one where theres constant change of scenery, your own boss, ability to listen to flamenco all day and pull over and get a coffee whenever you feel like sounds perfect for me if it wasent for the fact that you had to wake up in the morning and be there at a certain time ...it almost wouldn't sound like a job
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 22 2012 13:32:12
|
|
Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
|
|
RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to paleto3)
|
|
|
My policy is that I will play a booked gig, and pass on additional referrals to trusted colleagues without a fee or further involvement. I do ask for deposits at the time of booking.
I do not feel comfortable skimming off the top and either adding costs to a client or paying a lower fee to another musician. It feels exploitive to me, unearned.
More practically, is that when you make money off the deal, you take on responsibility to both parties. If something goes wrong, you will usually be blamed, at cost to your reputation. I can control my behavior, but not that of other musicians. The $50 is not worth it.
There are other considerations. If you send someone who is too good or too savvy, you may end up losing your connection, and future gigs. If you send someone who is not good enough or says the wrong thing, that also can make you look bad.
So I send friends who are professional and will do a good job, but who, I hope, will not "steal" any further gigs. Although that is always a risk. The idea is that they are supposed to refer gigs back to me. Unfortunately, I probably refer 25 gigs out to every 1 I get back.
Like everywhere, I guess, we have a "flamenco mafia", and I don't do business with them because I do not feel their practices are ethical, and in the past, it has been more trouble than it's worth. Angry clients who have been lied to, gigs getting pulled the day before, not getting paid, etc.
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 22 2012 19:49:18
|
|
Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
|
|
RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to paleto3)
|
|
|
Mark, Anthony, :)
I get this, too... When I book a group, I do make more. But it's a fine line as to how much more. When is it fair, and when is it exploitive? If you are keeping secrets from your colleagues, are you really justified?
It's not easy to say, because not all musicians are going to look at it from both perspectives or with any degree of realism. I pay my guys more than anyone else does, I believe, and probably make less of a leader premium than anyone else in town. But I don't know that it materially helps me. Most musicians are just going to go to who has the gigs.
On the other hand, there can be wounds that never heal when secrets are kept and people feel there is too much disparity in the equation.
I do not care for the agents as much as Mark. I think most of them charge much more than 20%. I have seen them drop people from their rosters at the slightest provocation, and they keep some of their musicians in a state of fear. It seems they are always trying to get me to lower my rate, and are not above trying to play me against the supposed fees of other players. Some of them ask me to play for free for FAMs and such. These are not the characteristics of an equitable business relationship.
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 22 2012 19:57:55
|
|
Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
|
|
RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
|
|
|
Just to be clear-I split the money evenly with musicians, but I understand why some don't. In my case, I've been playing with the same guys for 20 years, so any extra work I did or money invested has long been recouped.
The reason it works with me with this agent is the understanding we have, and that's been nurtured from the beginning. I agree that agents in general tend to be jerks.
If I was trying to earn a living , it would be completely different. I couldn't indifferently sit around waiting for a call. I'd have to hustle. The fact is I'm pretty much done gigging. Once you start doing corporate work, it kind of ruins you. You get spoiled by the money, and don't want to do lower paying stuff, and the chops required aren't the same, so you get lazy. At least I did. Maybe I just burned out on it.
LOL at the mafia comment. I heard the exact same comment from a local dancer. She said your either in or not. Too bad for her she's of the opinion she's not, which, in her case, is a shame.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Mark, Anthony, :)
I get this, too... When I book a group, I do make more. But it's a fine line as to how much more. When is it fair, and when is it exploitive? If you are keeping secrets from your colleagues, are you really justified?
It's not easy to say, because not all musicians are going to look at it from both perspectives or with any degree of realism. I pay my guys more than anyone else does, I believe, and probably make less of a leader premium than anyone else in town. But I don't know that it materially helps me. Most musicians are just going to go to who has the gigs.
On the other hand, there can be wounds that never heal when secrets are kept and people feel there is too much disparity in the equation.
I do not care for the agents as much as Mark. I think most of them charge much more than 20%. I have seen them drop people from their rosters at the slightest provocation, and they keep some of their musicians in a state of fear. It seems they are always trying to get me to lower my rate, and are not above trying to play me against the supposed fees of other players. Some of them ask me to play for free for FAMs and such. These are not the characteristics of an equitable business relationship.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 22 2012 23:10:35
|
|
paleto3
Posts: 148
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: San Diego, CA
|
|
RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
|
|
|
When I book a group, I've done the marketing, advertising (paid), networking, I bring the PA and cables, I write the charts, I spend the days calling venues to get us on vendor lists, I call everyone to make sure they write the gig in on their calendar, I make sure we have what we need, I make sure we're dressed appropriately (actually I am about to buy us all shirts), I will have arranged for photography for pics, paid for web hosting, I may drive an hour to meet a couple about their wedding, I will be paying a Wedding Store type person to refer us, etc. etc. and everyone agrees I deserve more, I decide who gets paid what based on the budget, sometimes I take 50% when I can still pay them minimum $300 for say a 2 or 3 hour gig, when the budget is $1,200...It depends, sometimes I take less or nothing for myself if it's a showcase, once in a while I ask them to do a showcase free if I am not getting paid anything, it's always different.
They all know I am working hard to get us booked, and they trust me because I often tell them exactly what the budget is, so they know they are getting a fair deal.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 23 2012 5:02:47
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|
Printable Version
florian vibrator...it would have to work!!...maybe like a smart play on words..."THE FLORMINATOR...for those hard to reach places" i dont know..."for when you have an ich that a BLANKMINATOR just cant scratch" iu dont know... il leave the slogans to you......think about it 
