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Brokering Gigs
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to paleto3)
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He should keep his word to the first client and go ahead and fulfill the agreement to play the gig, regardless whether it pays more or less than the second offer. How would you like it if the client made an offer to you to play and you accepted, but the client also offered the gig to a second guitarist who charged less, and thus gave the gig to the second guitarist instead of you, but he told you he had a friend who would offer you a gig instead. The client originally offered the gig to you, not the other guitarist you mention. To accept multiple offers on the same date and then weigh them, accepting the higher paying one, takes a lack of integrity. I would never offer a gig again to anyone who treated me like that.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 21 2012 4:21:22
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paleto3
Posts: 148
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: San Diego, CA
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to Florian)
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I never ever book both, or give the lower paying one to another guitarist, keep some $$ for the lower paying one, even though I advertise, and also play the higher paying one.
I know someone here who does this, and there may be another guitarist who tells the 2nd client he's going to send another guitarist, but still keeps the fee for himself. Not much I can do, but I think it's a bad practice.
I cannot even refer another guitarist who I suspect will do either of these things.
My policy is to accept what I accept, and hand an even better paying or more desirable gig to someone by keeping my word with my first client. I have done it many times, I think it's the right decision.
I think some guitarists feel that because they pay for advertising and promote themselves, they have a right to make some $$ off a 2nd gig, but my advertising and my promotion is at least equal to that of my competitors, possibly more. I think I advertise more than the others, unless they are paying a person who gets them gigs...
I think the best policy is to set up reciprocal referrals with other musicians, so that when I am booked and someone wants a date on which I am booked, I send that client to someone who works the same way. I have set this up with some other musicians, mostly guitarists, and they also send me clients when they are already booked. I think it's the smartest, most respectful way to work with your competitors.
I just wanted to see if I was missing some aspect of this that I should consider.
I absolutely hate it that someone pays me less than the negotiated fee. I let each musician I refer charge what he/she needs to charge and I don't get involved.
What if they're late, or don't show or screw up something or suck?
I think this is a very good thing for us all to discuss.
I hope more people chime in.
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Date Aug. 21 2012 7:36:42
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to Florian)
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I just pass the gig on to another player and don't try to profit from it, but..............I get gigs from an agent and he profits from every gig I do. He has a staff he has to pay, an office, advertising, and many years in business in which he has established a reputation. People who call him aren't going to call me. He asks me how much I want for the gig, then puts his markup on it, and trys to sell it. I get the check in the mail before I even get to the gig.
As a result of this relationship, I have booked very few gigs myself for many years. He can sell a group for more than I can because his clients are used to paying more. I know he puts 20% on most gigs, which is a healthy number, but I couldn't care less. He earns his money. I can name any number I want, so if I say I want 2k for a gig, and he sells it for 3k, why is that a problem? It's not like someone called me and offered me the 3k.
To underestimate the skill, time, and effort it takes to sell a service is a mistake IMO.
I would ask yourself this: If your group usually gets 2k for a gig, and this other guitarist calls and offers you a gig for 5k, you take it and then find out he collected 10k, are you upset?
If you feel he doesn't have the right to profit from his experience and reputation, then I would pose the following question:
You have a group in which you are the featured musician. You've sweat to learn VA's material, etc. Then you hire a bass player, who although a talented player, knows nothing of flamenco. So, you chart out the tunes, help him with the compas, etc. Then you book a gig for 2k because you have advertised your service, and they want a "flamenco" group. Do you split the money evenly with him and the other players?
If you have the right to profit from the labor of the bass dude, then maybe the other guitarist has the right to profit from his reputation as well. I'm not saying I would do this, but I understand why someone would.
A couple of my buddies are in a name band, and have played in the band for more than 20 years. They get half of what the singer gets per gig, even after 20 years. They got sick of it and demanded x per gig, which they got. But the singer still gets more. It's typical in many circles(jazz bands, some rock bands, etc) for the leader to get double, or even more. Nobody questions it.
Bottom line, you can refuse the gig offered, or you can name a number that will make you happy and not worry about who else might be making a few bucks.
In business I think it's a mistake to count the other guy's money.
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Date Aug. 21 2012 17:09:06
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paleto3
Posts: 148
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: San Diego, CA
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to Mark2)
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Mark,
You and I are on the same page.
I work through agents sometimes too, and I appreciate their efforts and I understand the time associated with developing the relationships that provide the clients. I do many of the things they do to create and maintain the relationships. I do get it. A good agent is a very, very valuable ally.
I have done exactly what you said about getting a bassist, teaching him compás, and am now almost done writing the charts for VA, Núñez, M. Franco, P. Peña. Actually the bassist and I wrote out many of them for bass, and I'm now writing them out for another guitarist who is beginning to play with us. It's time consuming, but it helps immensely and it sounds great.
I am arranging for us to get pictures (7 people total have to show up, dressed a smiling), and to showcase for some event related associations and arranging for professional video to be taken.
I do get more, but I am band leader and I spend my days trying to get us gigs, practicing music, writing charts, responding to inquiries, writing advertising copy, recording tunes for the other guitarist, communicating with everyone, setting up and attending rehearsals, etc. I do, however, pay them better than other musicians do because I ask more of them, it's only fair.
I'm glad to see I have come to see things similar to someone else. It's reassuring to hear you have reached similar conclusions.
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Date Aug. 21 2012 17:34:35
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
there isnt that much money in music so why not try and get some when they come...ethical smethical we fuc*ing starving here , they will do the same thing to you if they find a cheaper guitarist even tho they booked you...its not like famous people and they will know if someone showed up other then the one they booked...with a guitar in our lap we all look the same and sound the same to them...if they can get you for less money they will...so if you can get more money and get away with it...get it..
Great attitude, if you don't give a damn about keeping your word, consider ethics an obstacle, and want to gain a reputation for copping out on commitments. By the way, I don't think anyone on the Foro is "fuc*ing starving here."
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 21 2012 21:58:18
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to paleto3)
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capitalist pigs!!!
Just kidding.
I feel it's a shame when all the gig offers end up on the same damn day....always happens to me but thats how it goes. I would not take a dime for offering the lesser or later offered gig to an other artist. But then again, I am not into the agent thing...that means I don't like to do it, and dont really have great past experiences with agents. Plus the clients that go through agents also can be problematic. I have bailed on both when I sense things going down a bad road. Once an artist/agent friend called for a gig, and an acting agency booked ME through my wife somehow, so the client was double booking ME (thinking I was two different people) for the same event and they were still negotiating prices....I realized what was up so I upped my fee on both ends to a ridiculous number and they both almost went for it, although my friend got ignored at one point...guess they trusted the acting agency better? It was comical.
Anyway, normally I think if you demand to take a cut cuz you "found" a gig or whatever, you should sleep fine at night knowing you ARE an agent, not an artist. No matter how good you think you are, thats pretty much the category you put yourself in.
I will admit that having passed on gigs to students and friends, I have gotten back much more than I would have ever asked interms of a percentage. And even in some cases I have had cash stuffed in my pocket against my will for doing such things. Ethics goes a LOOOOOOOOONG way actually.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Aug. 21 2012 22:43:24
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I've played music with many people over the years who have attempted, some more successfully than others, to do nothing else. One guy, very talented, led a band that played mostly bars. He got a call to play new years eve at a huge hall in eddie money's band. He cancelled his own band's gigs to rehearse and perform with eddie money. Lack of ethics?
Another time a couple guys were supposed to do a club date with me even though they were at the latin grammys in los angeles that day. They planned to fly up that afternoon. I'm getting ready to go to the gig and a producer calls me and tells me they won't make it because they are still on the set. I was pretty pissed, but really, here I am going to a club in Mill Valley , CA, a restaurant really, and my bandmates are at the freakin latin grammys. How pissed could I really be?
I know another guy that used to be a signed artist for an Italian record company. We made a record and toured italy together with two other players. He had dozens of mag articles, great reviews, airplay up the gazoo. Years later I was walking through the Venetian in Vegas and I see him wearing one of those gondola outfits with a pignose strapped to his waist playing with a trio by the fake canal.
Unless you've played music for a living you have no idea how tough it can be. I doubt any of those described above are on the foro though...........
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Great attitude, if you don't give a damn about keeping your word, consider ethics an obstacle, and want to gain a reputation for copping out on commitments. By the way, I don't think anyone on the Foro is "fuc*ing starving here."
Cheers,
Bill
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Date Aug. 21 2012 23:21:15
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Guest
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to paleto3)
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There is a local soul singer here who booked two gigs on a new years eve a few years back
One city block away from each other
Instead of passing on the gig he....
Played one set at one venue then ran to the next to play a set and so on and so forth till 2am
At midnight he sang at the higher paid gig while the backing singer filled the midnight cheer...
Guess he did employ two sets of musicians on that night
On agents?
Some are good to work with and transparent in their dealings..but locally they take up to 3 months to pay...usually letting our pay sit in high monthly interest accounts
One agent called me to play a solo 40 minute spot at an event in our town hall...
A standard $150 gig
Normally the client would pay the agent so his fee was always an unknown..
At the end of my set the client came up to me and said
'do I pay you now, I have some cash here'
'sure' I said
He handed over $300
So the agent earnt as much as me
Easy money for a few phone calls....
Personally I just refer people on, without thought of profiting...
But have no issue with some other taking a small cut as long as I'm not waiting months for the pay
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Date Aug. 22 2012 0:44:40
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
Great attitude, if you don't give a damn about keeping your word, consider ethics an obstacle, and want to gain a reputation for copping out on commitments. By the way, I don't think anyone on the Foro is "fuc*ing starving here."
ok that post was more joke from me...like phantasy of how i wish i could do..in reality i just pass gigs on to friends and do the stuff i commit to...but yes it is tough out there, and yes they will cancel you and book someone cheaper and yes some of us are doing it very tough at times.....
Gonna tell you a little story cause i am a little disillusioned with the whole thing lately
I had a big show i had to prepare for, biggest festival you could hope to land, biggest theater u dream to play in, tv appearances etc (you think to your self yes, the pay will match the event and the responsibilities placed on me)...almost got kicked out of my house cause I couldn't pay the rent (got phone call 2 days before show)...no money was coming from anywhere, the festival pay was nowhere near enough for the kind of commitment they asked (i make more money teaching and playing for classes) but i didn't even have time to do that with rehearsals and organizing and media appearances my preparation for it...everyone just wanted it all for free...the demands and time schedule was that of a pro but the payments didn't match...however if i didn't commit as a pro people in the theater would have no idea i got paid peanuts and did on near impossible odds and money ...I would look bad and make everyone else look bad and our local scene look bad in front of our entire city who for once will see on a big scale what we do....and then good luck trying to get some crowd to a local event again when we looked this bad this one time when we needed to look good when everyone was looking..
so yea...I say again... when you can get it... take it..my heart bleeds for them but it bleeds for me more when i am almost getting kicked out of my place  ...for what ...for being dedicated enough.....for being good enough to be asked to play this festival and represent them on tv but not good enough to put my mind at ease about my bills while doing it..and it wasent cause of lack of money (they got a sh*tload of money), it was cause they didn't give a sh*t...trying to get it as cheap as they possibly could...they knew it was too bigger opportunity for some local nobody like me to say no, if i said no 3 other guitarists would say yes in a heart beat ( i did say not for the first week...negotiated for a week and turned it down but then dancers convinced me it was too good of an opportunity to turn down)......1200 people paid $55 -$75 per head...we were half of the show, i got $2000 to split between 7 people and fly 3 of them in and out of Adelaide, cause i needed singers ...(flights alone were $1000)
its like if someone brings over a great flamenco company from Spain and then gives you $200 budget and says, on the same night you play half of the show for the local scene, dont make us look bad, and we gonna bring you reviewers to compare you to this great company too..(but whats even worst ...they didn't care how the local scene would look because they come once every 2 years...dont care if people didn't go to much local stuff as a result of us looking amateurish because that's what the budget allocated you could afford you) ...but i didn't let the budget dictate how we would look....i sacrificed and invested my own money to make sure it wasent ..i had too
fuc*ing disgraceful, when u think how much money they took on the night from the event, how much they asked of me leading up to it...and how much they gave considering we filled half of the program, standing ovations, good reviews... not even a "thank you florian" after...i made more money playing some sh*ty restaurant to people who didn't give a s*it or listen than for this people who were meant to have my back and appreciate musicians at this festival that's meant to be a dream to land , my bills are stacked up and i need to start over..
the ticket people, sound guys, photographers, stage crew, cafe staff, ushers, lighting guys, cleaners, door guy, 100 office guys that typed up contracts for me to sign, bar attendants....about 100 festival and theater staff would have gotten paid an excess of about $40.000 cause the reason of being there that night was an event for which half of it i was responsible for...and i got paid fu*k all ...wouldn't that sting a little and leave you bitter ...no exaggeration i would have made more money picking up litter in the car park for the event than being part of the event on stage...or doing ANYTHING else other than being part of the reason people were there
so excuse me if words like "reputation " and "attitude " dont mean very much to me atm..if you dont look out for you even those that are meant to appreciate what you do will screw you like some second hand car salesman...if i take a higher paying gig...its only to give them better flamenco in the long run
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Date Aug. 22 2012 5:45:55
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Guest
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to Florian)
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you make some great points Florian
each festival i've ever been partof has always ended up in a negative balance...not to mention those free media events [abc radio at 7 am...and still had to buy my own coffee...]
maybe some spending money on merchandise ...like CD's...[maybe worth considering for future events but then more outlay to begin with...maybe a grant application will help when putting on your next shows..understanding that this particular festival was'nt open to performers applying for assistance]
the reality for the musician is always so different than percieved by the public...
must say i'm glad you put yourself on the line for that show....it was a such a highlight.
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Date Aug. 22 2012 7:28:19
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Guest
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
changed my view of things
understand that very well which is why i made personal changes earlier this year...
i think also the down side of it all is those 'free' media events only promote the event, not the artist....
for many out there in television land florian you are part of a visiting american flamenco company...
back to the brokering topic
tonight i have a flamenco gig...
filling in for a guitarist who i greatly respect and admire...no problem...happy to do it...has helped me hugely in discovering this art form..
from our conversation a payment figure was quoted...nice amount, would have taken less...he was also very transparent about the split between musician and dancers...straightforward and honest...
last night i went to the rehersal with the girls and confirmed the amount i was to be paid with the person who ran the school....
her response to the figure i was quoted...
'no, he gets $200 but we will only pay you $75...'
sure makes me feel good...not...
again where is the $125 going?...pretty certain not as a bonus to the dancers or the guitarist im filling in for...
i'd be happy with something closer to the original quote as i have to cancel students to be there...and yep i have teenage kids and am trying to save $$$ to get to spain next month...
had all this been revealed at the start i could base my involvement on that...most of my income is from gigs or teaching....but she does have me by the short and curlies as she knows i love playing...
anyway im off to do it...other than the fact i need to get my flamenco experience up and not going to be 'unprofessional' and say no 24 hours before the gig..[ i'll save that for next time]...just wouldnt do it to the dancers as she seems to have burnt bridges with every other guitarist in town...
just not sure i can deal with this person again [the dance teacher that is]....f**ks with my already failing self esteem...
sob sob bitch bitch.....
quote:
Personally i don't enjoy dealing with these things and prefer to make money elsewhere.
smart move...
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Date Aug. 22 2012 8:03:49
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to KMMI77)
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quote:
Personally i don't enjoy dealing with these things and prefer to make money elsewhere. It gives me the freedom to say no sometimes.
i know man, my problem is i am a all or nothing person, either do this 100% or get a job and make that 100% not have to worry about showing up half prepared for a gig due to lack of practice time or energy
i did work in the factory and then tried to perform too, i was exhausted, didn't practice enough, cancelled classes, cancelled rehearsals...was just holding in both...but then on weekend id perform and feel ****ty about my shape....i am at a point now where i need to reevaluate because by stacking bills atm dont care about my ambitions and artistic integrity lol but il tell you right now...if i do get a job...well i will be too exhausted to do anything else other than flamenco for myself...and i am not gonna get on some stage if i dont feel good enough about my playing...and when i dont need to cause i am paying my bills from work pay...i need flamenco...i dont need to perform it
so if i do music i try to that 100% or if i get a job and need to make money i dont wanna have to then go on stage and play poorly cause i am out of shape..people listening are not gonna care that i am tired or why i am playing poorly
I hate being in the middle like that...whats the point...but in saying this, you are always in great shape, u must a found a great way to make it work, respect to you... with me i just get exhausted and dont practice as much as i should...
quote:
her response to the figure i was quoted...
'no, he gets $200 but we will only pay you $75...'
sure makes me feel good...not...
again where is the $125 going?
i'd be happy with something closer to the original quote as i have to cancel students to be there...and yep i have teenage kids and am trying to save $$$ to get to spain next month...
gee let me guess
you should have said you not doing it for less, should have said the reason u accepted the gig was cause he told you it would be 200, youre too nice for your own good....noone else would have done it...think about it, shes screwing you but you have the advantage, Alo wont do it cause he asked you, I wont, Werner wont, and Luke wont....theres no one else...if they want the gig they would have to pay you what they would have the other guitarist...or a lot closer to it..
its up to you to educate her and stand up for yourself or this would never change with her, especially her...shes the one that says she refuses to pay guitarists for classes because they always "leave" her...she'll never some up and say, wow you have improved ...i am going to increase your pay
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Date Aug. 22 2012 8:05:40
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Guest
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to Florian)
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Hey Florian
i know
but my loyalty lies with who booked me in the first place....
it will have to be the last time...shame as i enjoy playing for her dancers..
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Date Aug. 22 2012 8:35:45
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Guest
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RE: Brokering Gigs (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
dont wanna make waves
that's it...especially on the day of the gig
pretty much over tidal onslaughts....
sent a text stating my minimum fee and will leave it at that for the future....
now to hop to the gig like a good bunny.........
quote:
does she have any idea you are not all that happy with the paying arrangements ? or that you know how much the other guitarist got ?
yes...very clear now
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Date Aug. 22 2012 9:05:21
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