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Bad experiences with dancers?
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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 Bad experiences with dancers?
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Okay, so I went over to a start-up flamenco dance class, and the teacher didn't know how to count Alegrías... She wanted to dance it, but she couldn't count it.
What's a fellow to do?
She turns to me and says, "I think your missing a chord or something." I asked her if she wanted more chords, (I had just been playing E and B7 at this point), but I started putting a few more chord changes... Then she said that I was missing a beat. So I counted a compas of Alegría and she said it was right. Then when we started she said I was leaving out a beat again. This time I got her though. I was recording on my iPhone and I played it back and counted it to her. And she said "I studied in Spain and they count Alegría from 1." I said, that's how they count it in America as well, or that's how I count it at least... You just heard me count it right? I'll play the recording back and count it again so we can study and find out what the problem is... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12... That sounds right to me she says...
So we started back up and sure enough she stopped and said we weren't together again. Keep in mind I was playing pretty simple here, but I offered to cut out my rasgueado on 1-2- and the rasgueado on 10. She said, "yeah lets try that." So we did and it was the same thing again... The 2nd compas she got off... Then she asked me to put in the rasgueados again. So I did and started tapping my foot heavily on all beats and counting out loud. I only did this a few times through, and then I quieted my counting and foot. Then she goes off again... Except for this time she asked me to count out loud and start on 12. At this point I had pretty much given up on it... LOL
I asked if I could use the metronome on my phone because I thought it may help us out. Well... It didn't...
Don't get me wrong here, I have no experience with dance accompaniment, and I hoped this would be something I could build on. I worked my ass off for a few months preparing for this class to start up. I spent a lot of time and some money on Jason and Jose's sites studying dance accompaniment to try to get my understanding as good as I could in advance. I even practiced like 5 hours today, (all of which was with a metronome). Unless I stomped and counted loudly she and I couldn't get together... I'm pretty disappointed.
A great flamenco I am not, but I have played music most of my life and never had any timing problems. When I came home I played once again with the "play along" Alegría tracks on both Jason and Jose's sites. No problem...
As I said this was a start up class, and she was trying to introduce herself and sign up students. She didn't know who would show up or how many would show up. Two people came in and one had some dance experience, and had no problems dancing with my playing. So I guess that I wasn't the one with the problem... I didn't stick around though to see how it all would end. I was there for an hour and only two showed up, so I guess it was probably a wash.
I'm sorry for bringing this up on here, but I needed to blow off some steam to someone who would understand. Don't get me wrong, I'm not angry, I'm upset. I want to learn and grow as a player, and we don't have any flamenco around here to speak of. For the last 6 months this lady has been talking about starting a class and how she studied in Spain and all of that. My hopes were high, and I thought this would be something great and I could learn and grow. Wrong again...
Why is it that so many people who suck say they studied in Spain? I feel like my flamenco playing sucks,, but at least I don't go around blowing hot air and acting like I studied in Spain when I didn't. I'll never understand people...
I hate to sound childish or something, but this was such a huge let down! I don't mind wasting a little time, but now that I know nothing is going to come of it I'm pretty disappointed... After all 6 months is a long time to build your expectations...
So tell me your sob story, or worse experience working with a dancer. Make me feel better guys!!! :)
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Date Jun. 27 2012 3:19:05
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Guest
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RE: Bad experiences with dancers? (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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Damn...
might have paid to get together before the students showed up....
i am playing quite a few classes at present some solo some with other guitarists
one teacher made a point of working out llamadas, escobilla, letras and falseta,s etc well before classes began to save the students time...think any dance teacher of worth would take a similiar approach unless she/he knows the guitarist well... ..all working well for me and learning so much...one teacher goes the full experience by singing the letra's as well as playing cajon....great success :~)
sorry to hear...keep powering away...sounds like you've done more than your fair share of work...maybe hangout with the student who kept compass...
no sob stories from me yet...i seem to be the one who screws up at times...
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Date Jun. 27 2012 3:53:56
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: Bad experiences with dancers? (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Deniz
there is one thing she DID learn something from going to Spain, which is to always blame the guitarrist 
but let me get this straight for you too, as long as your playing is not several levels above "suck" (your own wording), you will not accompany people who also suck too.
Okay, Perhaps I have been to humble? I can keep time, pull off any tempo that can be danced, change chords in the appropriate places, play some good fast-in-time rasgueados, and get paid to play, yes, even get paid here and there to play flamenco. So that's several levels above sucking I guess... I'll remember to choose my words a little more carefully in the future when describing my playing on here from now on.
All points are well taken, and yes I am whining a bit and I'll admit that. The problem is that I had built this up in my mind and practiced hard just to find out that it all was going to crash and burn. We're talking a lot of hours here... Though in the end all that practice time helped me no matter the outcome of this class and I'm thankful to have that to show.
I would have loved getting together privately with her and working stuff out, but she should have thought about that during the last 6 months when she was emailing and calling me and telling me how great she was... I thought it to be odd that she didn't want to get together before hand, but what do I know. I asked her what she wanted to dance and told her I would be ready. I informed her that I didn't have a wealth of experience with dancers, but that I would learn what ever she wanted me to, and I would keep time and not hold her back. At first I questioned my playing and kept wondering where I was going wrong. Then when she could dance with a loud count and stomp, I realized that I wasn't the one who wasn't prepared... The 2nd student coming in and burning the footwork up with my accompaniment confirmed that I wasn't the problem.
I would be more than glad to work with her and I'm sure it would make both of us better. Its a little hard to work with someone though if they don't see that they aren't as good as they think they are. We all know that this stuff aint easy, but she seems to think that its easier than it is.
I commend her for wanting to start something up no matter her experience, but don't try to take peoples money if you aren't better than they are. As I have said, one of the two students showed her up badly. I got an email from her this morning and we'll be getting together, so all was not lost...
@ Stephen, I get what your saying about the guitar being the air traffic controller, but I'm no where near an experienced enough accompanist to be able to keep a dancer in compas if she/ he don't have the palo and rhythm in in his or her mind and feet. That would take several years for sure to get to that level, and many nights doing it over and over. That won't ever be an option in this town...
I guess my problem is that I have played music for 21 years now mostly on a professional level, and got used to working with people who can keep time. We all have worked with lots of people who will sway the tempo... Anyone will move tempo somewhat unless your always playing every note with a metronome, but if she don't know the palo I can't hold her up. I'm just not that good of a flamenco guitarist... Maybe some of you have magic hands and the powers of experience that will automatically make a dancer be in compas no matter how she moves the tempo or no matter how many beats she leaves out. If that's the case then I congratulate you, because I don't have that skill and probably never will... Furthermore, until you have many years of experience accompanying people, always accompanying one person who can't keep time will have a negative affect on your playing and I guarantee that. At this stage of my experience, (or lack there of) in flamenco, I won't knowingly do anything that will f**k up my playing. I also won't do anything if it isn't fun, just because I don't have to. Life's to short and music is to great to make either be bad...
Come on people, we are talking about a "teacher" who has a iPhone but no DR. Compas, (and had never heard of it), who said she has never owned a metronome, but wants to take peoples money for lessons. I think that tells the story better than I ever could about her timing and commitment to flamenco... I'm sure plenty of you can come back and tell me 100 ways I am wrong though, and you may be right about all 100 of them...
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Date Jun. 27 2012 16:20:44
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Bad experiences with dancers? (in reply to XXX)
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lol Deniz 
man it is what it is...they do have their uses ...and of course its not always like that, i got to accompany amazing inspiring dancers who had a wealth of knowledge and understanding of the compas and dynamics and worked as hard as a guitarist or harder at it etc......
I initially got to learn to accompany thanks to a compared to today's standards of dancing and teaching not so perfect dancer, her compas and dynamics were not anything spectacular... but she allowed me to sit in in her classes and thought me what she could..and i did learn some things...so that was useful for me.
the dancers i work with regularly this days, we work together...help each other and discuss and fix any problems, no blaming, no pointing fingers just get the job done......i dont see myself above or see anyone bellow or the other way around...we just try to fix whatever problems we have in rehearsals
when u eliminate wasted energy, stress and time lost on arguing and trying to figure out who's right, who's wrong, who went out of compas...who's better, ..u get more time to just fix the problem areas.....
Once someone has been singled out...made to feel uncomfortable, insecure and is on the edge or stressed...nothing is getting fixed, nothing is getting inspiring.. defense mechanism goes up...wall goes up...forget about it...might as well pack up and go home to avoid serious arguments
u also have to be lucky enough to work in a group where everyone has a sense of humor, dosent take themselves soo seriously (like they could never possibly be wrong) and there are no superstars*...i dont do well with them, i dont do well with being talked down to or with them telling me what and how to play from the start to the end...like i am a cd player and i got no say or my own taste...that's robbing me of my ! joy of playing and expression...i will try to compromise and do what i can to make it good for them but if its all one way ...from the start to the end, i have problems with it...i didn't pick up the guitar to express only your ideas
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Date Jun. 27 2012 16:29:55
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: Bad experiences with dancers? (in reply to Florian)
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Thanks Florian and others for such levelheaded advice and encouragement. I agree with your words 100 percent. The best thing to do would be to try again, if she's still interested. Because this was her first class she didn't know what the level would be of her two students and the experience of one of them was surprising to all of us. The other student had never had any lessons, but she probably won't be coming back. When we were leaving she was talking to the student who had some experience and she said, "I would like to get some lessons from you." The experienced "student" saw that she was on a higher level than the "teacher" so that will leave the "teacher" without any students for a while I guess.
I know that working with this "teacher" will make me better in some way, hell it already has, but I wish that she hadn't bragged about her experience and talent so much. I also wished that she would have not tried to take these peoples money so quickly. I went in there being humble and saying things like, "Your the boss here and don't be afraid to call the shots, because I just want to do what you want me to do. I appreciate you having me as a part of your program and I value being able to learn from a person who's studied at the level that you have. You don't know how excited I have been about this class starting!" Turns out that she didn't have the experience that was advertised. This was obvious by many things other than the problems with the palo.
As for some of the comments by others, I don't think they require a response. If you had taken the time to read my posts you would see that your just talking out of your ass. Nothing about flamenco is easy, and I'm not as great as you guys who can carry a dancer that don't know a palo. I can take the time to try to get it worked out with her, but if she's not open to that I won't force it.
I fear that this discussion (be it worthwhile or not) will just be turned into a bunch of BS by lurkers who don't have anything to offer but a bunch of dribble and useless comments provided by the endless amount of time they have on hand.
I do thank those of you who have contributed something. Flo is right, and I'll go with his sensible approach and call her up today. On that note the subject is pretty much closed for me. I had hoped that this thread would lead to people sharing their experiences with dancers, good, bad or funny, but that's not the direction it is taking for the most part.
I'll leave it alone before I make a comment like I did last year when I said that, "no one here is beyond greatness." That taught me that a lot of members aren't as humble as I try to be, and that both egos and reasons to insult/ argue are precious parts of this forum. I'm out now, think I'll go work on some new lessons on Jason's site and try to become as great as I can be...
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Date Jun. 27 2012 17:29:24
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Bad experiences with dancers? (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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quote:
but I wish that she hadn't bragged about her experience and talent so much
haha that ain't bragging, its pretty mild compared to what it could be...wait a while ...you'l see some braging, i am sure u will encounter worst and more of it....i got an average guitarist in Australia who recons Duquende and Tommy Emmanuel and Paco De Lucias luthier said hes a "phenomenal player"..and has this printed on his website, says hes sponsored by this string company who when someone checked have never heard of him
World famous dancers who have danced the biggest theaters in Madrid and the World but are now choosing to dance in Adelaide/Australia
Flamenco singers who before became singers were bull fighters, goalkeepers for Real Madrid and composed one of the Gipsy Kings songs... are best friends with Paco de Lucia and Pepe cause they grew up together...and with all this activity he also found time to own a nightclub and loved 10000 women
bulls*hit in flamenco is an everyday occurrence my friend lol only thing u can do is lough at it and take it all with a pinch of salt
my fav ...u see this on posters sometimes "DIRECT FROM SPAIN!!" .......via Salvador, Sydney, Lebanon, Victor harbor, Melbourne, Singapore, Kazakhstan, Qeensland... it is direct from Spain!!! ...just took 11 years to get here,
dosent really matter what u say as long as the word SPAIN is written somewhere..
my next will be ..."come to this show, sitting through it will be aSPAINfull as possible "
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Date Jun. 27 2012 17:34:52
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Bad experiences with dancers? (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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You say you can accompany any tempo, but unless you've accompanied people who can go at speeds the pros go, how do you know?
If you had to rehearse to prepare for a dance class, then you are in danger of being seriously humbled by a good dancer, and even though the dancer you got together with may not be that, they are out there. Everyone who has played for dancers for any amount of time has had bad expereinces, and good ones, and great ones.
Dr. Compas???? I love dr compas, and I have nothing but respect for Jason's abilities, but it would be foolish to judge someone based on if they have an i phone app. There are incredible dancers in Spain who have never heard of dr compas, and probably many others who don't care about i phone apps.
I was also one of those people who played guitar professionaly , many years full time, before learning flamenco. I managed to study with a good guitarist and learned many of his solos and did many gigs before really learning how to play for dance. It's a different thing, and your knowledge of other styles of playing will be of limited use should you decide to pursue it. Even if you can play solos in every palo in compas doesn't mean you can accompany them decently. A dancer has the leeway to change the tempo..........
Remember you are there to support them, and if you can't do that, you can't really help them much, and conversely, if a dancer can't dance in compas, then nothing you play will make it so. But, if you know the steps, of which you will learn to recognize many after a time, you'll know when someone is dragging and be able to adjust. That's not an option if they aren't in the ballpark. I don't know if you should pursue working with this particular dancer, as it could be frustrating working with someone who thinks they know but doesn't. But it's worthwhile to pursue playing for dance in my opinion, because your flamenco playing will grow for sure.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shawn Brock
Okay, Perhaps I have been to humble? I can keep time, pull off any tempo that can be danced, change chords in the appropriate places, play some good fast-in-time rasgueados, and get paid to play, yes, even get paid here and there to play flamenco. So that's several levels above sucking I guess... I'll remember to choose my words a little more carefully in the future when describing my playing on here from now on.
All points are well taken, and yes I am whining a bit and I'll admit that. The problem is that I had built this up in my mind and practiced hard just to find out that it all was going to crash and burn. We're talking a lot of hours here... Though in the end all that practice time helped me no matter the outcome of this class and I'm thankful to have that to show.
I would have loved getting together privately with her and working stuff out, but she should have thought about that during the last 6 months when she was emailing and calling me and telling me how great she was... I thought it to be odd that she didn't want to get together before hand, but what do I know. I asked her what she wanted to dance and told her I would be ready. I informed her that I didn't have a wealth of experience with dancers, but that I would learn what ever she wanted me to, and I would keep time and not hold her back. At first I questioned my playing and kept wondering where I was going wrong. Then when she could dance with a loud count and stomp, I realized that I wasn't the one who wasn't prepared... The 2nd student coming in and burning the footwork up with my accompaniment confirmed that I wasn't the problem.
I would be more than glad to work with her and I'm sure it would make both of us better. Its a little hard to work with someone though if they don't see that they aren't as good as they think they are. We all know that this stuff aint easy, but she seems to think that its easier than it is.
I commend her for wanting to start something up no matter her experience, but don't try to take peoples money if you aren't better than they are. As I have said, one of the two students showed her up badly. I got an email from her this morning and we'll be getting together, so all was not lost...
@ Stephen, I get what your saying about the guitar being the air traffic controller, but I'm no where near an experienced enough accompanist to be able to keep a dancer in compas if she/ he don't have the palo and rhythm in in his or her mind and feet. That would take several years for sure to get to that level, and many nights doing it over and over. That won't ever be an option in this town...
I guess my problem is that I have played music for 21 years now mostly on a professional level, and got used to working with people who can keep time. We all have worked with lots of people who will sway the tempo... Anyone will move tempo somewhat unless your always playing every note with a metronome, but if she don't know the palo I can't hold her up. I'm just not that good of a flamenco guitarist... Maybe some of you have magic hands and the powers of experience that will automatically make a dancer be in compas no matter how she moves the tempo or no matter how many beats she leaves out. If that's the case then I congratulate you, because I don't have that skill and probably never will... Furthermore, until you have many years of experience accompanying people, always accompanying one person who can't keep time will have a negative affect on your playing and I guarantee that. At this stage of my experience, (or lack there of) in flamenco, I won't knowingly do anything that will f**k up my playing. I also won't do anything if it isn't fun, just because I don't have to. Life's to short and music is to great to make either be bad...
Come on people, we are talking about a "teacher" who has a iPhone but no DR. Compas, (and had never heard of it), who said she has never owned a metronome, but wants to take peoples money for lessons. I think that tells the story better than I ever could about her timing and commitment to flamenco... I'm sure plenty of you can come back and tell me 100 ways I am wrong though, and you may be right about all 100 of them...
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Date Jun. 27 2012 22:42:18
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: Bad experiences with dancers? (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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Okay, so I missed a post or two. Thanks again Flo, I just saw your post about following a dancer, but not wanting someone to tell you what to play from start to finish, (I'm paraphrasing here). That's kind of what happened over there. She would call a chord a beat and so on. Its hard to take direction from someone if they don't know the difference in a beat or a chord... As I have said, I told her she was the boss and I wanted to play what was best for her, but at least be able to tell me something...
After getting some emails from her students today, its obvious that things took a turn for the worse for her reputation. The student with dance experience said that she couldn't dance to the tracks she brought either. I missed all of that because I had already packed up and headed for home. She just wasn't ready to teach a class I think. In the end her nerves got the best of her I think. Its such a shame because if she would have chosen to get together beforehand, we could have probably worked out any problems. I had asked her if she wanted to do that, but she said not to worry about it... She wanted me to show up at the studio 30 minutes in advance. Well that's what I did, but she didn't show up until 5 minutes before the class started... Actions like that bother me, and yes, I do feel that her doing things like that was taking advantage and not being considerate of other peoples time to some extent...
@ Mark, I'm not putting her down just because she don't have DR. Compas, but don't you feel like someone who is supposed to be a "pro dancer" should have owned a metronome of some kind at some point in life? That just seems pretty basic to me, but again, what do I know about dancers... Cante and solo is more my bag anyhow, but I want to learn, grow and understand all I can about dancing... Hell I was even going to take some private lessons from her to help me understand more. The world wouldn't ever want to see me dance... Trust me. LOL
Thanks Ricardo, I know that you are one of the folks on here who has lots of experience with dancers. At some point when things settle down for me I need to get some lessons from you with this stuff and all other aspects of flamenco. You can take me at my word on this one though, her timing wasn't just glitchy, it would swing by 10/ 15 beats on Palmas. If I stomped though she could keep time, but her accents would fall wrong at times. Even when she was counting out loud. A person with your experience probably could have pulled it off with ease, but I know that I couldn't, and I got tired of rehearsing in public. That just didn't seem like the way to go about things. I don't put all the blame on her, because all my life most music I played had strict timing. When its just a dancer and guitarist, strict timing isn't always the case. Its part of my past that I'll have to overcome if I want to play for dance I guess. I'm used to the idea of everyone gets the tempo and sticks with it, and if one guy gets off time he has to jump back into place. It seems that with dance, it don't matter if a dancer gets off time, we are supposed to follow them... In most other forms of music the person who knocks time is the one responsible for jumping back in, and that's a hard thing for me to get over. Of course I don't have this problem or opinion of worrying about strict timing when playing some Palos solo, and I understand the movements of timing for some cante... Still I feel like she didn't quite live up to the responsibility she set for herself. But what are ya gonna do? Just keep on playing and riding it out...
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Date Jun. 28 2012 4:52:42
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i mean if she was more experienced you would have liked for her to help you...but now if its worked out the other way u dont wanna help her ?...u can help her...even helping others with they compas can help you improve yours...and you will actually have someone to do flamenco with ...so it helps both....levels go up 
