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RE: Barbero & Fernández
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I don't know if this practice would qualify as "factory-made," but apparently there is considerable evidence that even top-of-the-line guitars, such as Conde, are often made by Valencia makers. Apparently Conde (in this case) provides the specs, the Valencia maker produces the instrument according to the specs, and a Conde label is put on. I have heard this from sources I consider reliable, but I have no real evidence. Can anyone confirm whether or not this "outsourcing" is the case, and would a Conde so-made be considered a "factory-made" instrument? Cheers, Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 11 2012 10:58:11
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Pedoviejo
Posts: 59
Joined: Dec. 12 2003
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RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
I have heard this from sources I consider reliable, but I have no real evidence. Can anyone confirm whether or not this "outsourcing" is the case, and would a Conde so-made be considered a "factory-made" instrument? Like TANuñez says, this is “old news” and has been kicked around quite a bit. What a factory guitar is depends upon how far you extend the term “factory.” Are Ramirez’s factory made? At various times in the Ramirez shop you might have one guy producing necks, another producing sides, etc., so that might or might not qualify. I don’t know where Conde’s are outsourced now or where they were outsourced in the past (I heard they used a Valencia “factory” shop, which in the old days was everyone’s main source for cheap guitars), but they have to be by simple logic: One builder can only produce so many guitars a year. Arcángel’s max was about 24, and that was when he was working continuously throughout the year. I think averages are between 15 and 25 for individual luthiers working more or less full time. And that’s why if a luthier produces anything less than professional grade guitars, I very sincerely doubt that he’s producing them himself – it just wouldn’t be worth his time. Anyway, at least Ramirez always gave notice to the purchaser: As you know, for top models the master builder’s initials were on the heel, lower models were designated by a different label, and guitars from outside the shop were likewise clearly designated as “built for” the Ramirez shop. In the old days even Arcángel would have Valencia guitars in the front of the shop with a round label stating that they were made in Valencia “para casa Arcángel Fernández”. (These and similar guitars from other famous shops you can find popping up on Ebay from time to time with a seller asking some ridiculous price simply because it has the famous builder’s name in it.) My gripe about Conde has always been their lack of notice. They always did have “seconds” clearly marked as such, but then there were those top models with their main label – and signature – inside that were made who knows where. My opinion is that you cross the line when you sign your own label and stick it in a guitar made by someone else without giving notice that it was made by someone else – EVEN IF it is a very fine, mostly hand-made instrument, because, for better or for worse, and with or without any rational basis, names can have great value, the impetus for their protection under trademark and copyright laws. How else can the modern Conde shop put a $20K retail price sticker on a “special edition” guitar when, I would submit, you can order/purchase an instrument that is just as good, and may well be superior, from any of the luthiers here on the Foro for a fraction of that price? (And I definitely support purchasing guitars from worthy luthiers as opposed to buying a name tag – even though that may not be sound advice for someone who is solely a collector-investor.) Even under Roman law, for “caveat emptor” to apply, there had to first be disclosure. Here’s the definition of “fraud” in the Louisiana Civil Code, which is very similar to the French and Spanish codes since it was derived from them: “Fraud is a misrepresentation or a suppression of the truth made with the intention either to obtain an unjust advantage for one party or to cause a loss or inconvenience to the other. Fraud may also result from silence or inaction.” You judge.
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Date Jun. 11 2012 21:19:30
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Pedoviejo)
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quote:
What a factory guitar is depends upon how far you extend the term “factory.” Are Ramirez’s factory made? At various times in the Ramirez shop you might have one guy producing necks, another producing sides, etc., so that might or might not qualify. This brings up an interesting question: We use terms like "luthier-made" and "factory-made" as if we all have a common understanding of their definitions. Your example of Ramirez's "factory" above, with each component of the instrument (neck, sides, back, etc.) produced by a different individual, certainly employs a division of labor that has the earmarks of a "factory" to me. But would a top-of-the-line Ramirez or Conde, produced in that manner, be considered a "factory-made" guitar or not? I think we can all agree that guitars made personally by Marcelo Barbero, Arcangel Fernandez, Gerundino Fernandez, and Manuel Reyes (as well as Foro members who are luthiers) definitely qualify as "luthier'made" instruments. But how far can one stretch that definition before it falls into "factory-made" instruments? Anyone care to hazard a comment or observation? Cheers, Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 12 2012 17:54:57
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Barbero & Fernández (in reply to Ricardo)
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Hola Ricardo, was at a flamenco dancer's party last night (Yumi la Rosa), and a guitarist there, young guy named Alex, asked me if I had heard of you. I guess he ran into you in Sanlucar, said you're Nunez's "main prodigy", and considers you one of the top flamenco players in the USA and who he would like to study with. I'm sure you get compliments all the time, but thought I'd pass on a little "props" to you. Take care, Miguel/Mike
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Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it. https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Jun. 18 2012 19:43:22
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