[HELP+ASK] i want to learn flamenco but i know nothing about guitar, is it possible?

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[HELP+ASK] i want to learn flamenco but i know nothing about guitar, is it possible?

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qzack

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011

[HELP+ASK] i want to learn flamenco ...

Hi,
Saludo desde Indonesia por los todos :)

I want to learn flamenco but i know nothing about guitar
The problem, in indonesia, is that flamenco players are few even there's no famous artist that plays flamenco very often in public.
So far after i browse from the internet i only found 4 classical guitar teachers that have the ability to play flamenco but they're far from my city and i dont have much time to go there often to learn and it will cost me much money.
While in my city i havent yet found another flamenco guitar teacher nor player

My friend said that flamenco is impossible to learn if we dont know anything about how to play basic guitars. So i learn the basics from rock and bossa nova musician
But i didnt really enjoy the process as much as learning flamenco by myself directly instead from videos
They keep pushing me to learn the basics from pop, rock and jazz songs even tries to stop me from playing flamenco at the very first place, saying that flamenco is a genre that is unable to teach us everything about the basics

Actually my plan is after i mastered flamenco then i'll explore another genre, not the otherwise like they've offered

The questions is:
is it true that flamenco cant teach us the basics of how to play a guitar? like musical notes, chords and scales? If yes, please tell me the steps that have to be taken to progress

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 0:16:47

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

quote:

after i mastered flamenco

Ha...

You don't need to know much but it would probably be very frustrating to start learning without at least a few basic chords and a baseline of feeling comfortable around the guitar. There's some good basic guitar lessons here: http://www.justinguitar.com

Otherwise maybe you could start with the Graf-Martinez books, they are VERY basic in the beginning.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 0:30:27

qzack

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Munin)

can i have the graf-martinez books online? somehow i prefer learn guitar basics from flamenco
flamenco is way too rare in my country from books, teachers and community :(

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 0:53:47

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

well first of all .. as munin's reaction implied : forget about mastering flamenco and exploring another style
it will just take you forever to master flamenco ( if you ever could ) ... flamenco is one of the hardest styles

maybe you need to set your goal for that ... if you love flamenco consider starting with flamenco so you don't adjust your technique later

if there are no teachers around you .. can you afford online teachers ?
not sure if these guys are willing to teach a complete beginner but .....
check Ricardo Marlow and Grisha Goryachev there is a site i came across days ago called (http://www.flamenco-lesson.com) check it out , not sure how good they are !

if you don't like online teachers , you can start with graf-martinez or juan martin's books ... but remember no one will be there to observe and fix your technique

good luck !

_____________________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/GuitarristaAD

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 2:17:19

qzack

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

lol i went too far in planning this

i think i'll try online course

btw i have juan martin's book already but somehow i didnt learn much about musical theories like chords, scales or whatsoever that might related to that

i only learn palos, some falsetas and right hand techniques basics

is it really like that or i just simply didn't notice something?

btw thanks :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 2:46:55

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

theres no such thing as impossible qzack ...if a guy can learn to play ukelele with his feet cause he dosent have hands u can learn flamenco if you really want...sure there will be some things u might have to correct..some angles ...one day with a teacher or if you go to spain...

this is your situation , is not ideal but its not impossible...with today technology u actually have a chance...theres books with audios, dvds, cd, websites (this website !)

online teachers !! ricardo, jason mcguire and many others..

its not ideal but not impossible

when i started out with flamenco , i started straight learning to accompany dancers too at the same time, i didn't know guitar, never played before...i didn't know flamenco...i dint know how to accompany dancers..

I had the advantage of having real life teacher to correct my positioning etc...but with some creativity...u can get that here...just film yourself the way u do it and we can help

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 5:34:26

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

I believe you're right zack ... judging the learning methods I saw, they don't provide much theory ... if you're interested into music theory I think you should go for classical guitar ... I started as a classical player and now playing both styles

you can ask for help here or check online resources about music theory
also I'm thinking of posting simple scales lesson on my youtube channel within 2 weeks .. check that as well

cheers !

_____________________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/GuitarristaAD

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 5:46:50

qzack

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Florian)

cool, that's motivating
thanks :D

btw how can i practice in performing?
simply by trying to play in public? plaza or somewhere crowded?
would it be effective? or is there any other way?
because when i play in front of people i play very unrelaxed unlike when i play alone

and how about accompaniment when i havent find any tocaor, cantaor or bailaor yet?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 8:34:23

qzack

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Elie)

honestly i prefer that way instead of learning the theories first
but is it right?

okay i'll check it out later :D

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 8:37:34

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

quote:

ORIGINAL: qzack

lol i went too far in planning this

i think i'll try online course

btw i have juan martin's book already but somehow i didnt learn much about musical theories like chords, scales or whatsoever that might related to that

i only learn palos, some falsetas and right hand techniques basics

is it really like that or i just simply didn't notice something?

btw thanks :)

It's like saying " I took a physics course but I learned nothing about math!"
Flamenco or any music style obeys laws of music theory like any
music played on guitar or piano. There is no reason to understand
Those laws in order to play. I recommend learn to play FIRST...understand
theory behind it later.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 16:38:33

Kalo

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

quote:

It's like saying " I took a physics course but I learned nothing about math!" Flamenco or any music style obeys laws of music theory like any
music played on guitar or piano. There is no reason to understand
Those laws in order to play. I recommend learn to play FIRST...understand
theory behind it later.

Ricardo is RIGHT!!!!! You don't need to learn theory to play flamenco...What you do need to learn is COMPAS/Rhythmn, and falsetta's!

Once you learn TWO or THREE a buleria or algeria, you can start mixing up falsetta and such...Then it becomes your own..

Similar to the ROCK or blues. I know THEORY and I don't mean just pentatonic scales. I know chords build up..Intervals, scales...

What helped me in rock, pop, and blues, was COPYING!!! And, I am finding this to be true with flamenco!!!!

Good Luck and you've come to the best place to learn!!!

Kalo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 17:04:29

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

quote:

Actually my plan is after i mastered flamenco then i'll explore another genre,

That is the MOST optomistic statement I have read on this forum ...ever....

I wonder what Ricardo will do after he has MASTERED flamenco ..//..........have a rest .??

_____________________________

Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 17:24:17

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

I wonder what Ricardo will do after he has MASTERED flamenco ..//..........have a rest .??

Of course not my friend....I will move on next to bossa nova and rock-pop of course just like everyone else!!!

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 19:56:10

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Ricardo)

me ....after the mastering bit ....not long to go now ....I plan on lying down in a dark cool quiet room for a week or so ..............

then , and only then , will I consider Mastering something else ....like making cocktails .........eg......

_____________________________

Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 20:59:09

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

quote:

btw how can i practice in performing?
simply by trying to play in public? plaza or somewhere crowded?
would it be effective? or is there any other way?
because when i play in front of people i play very unrelaxed unlike when i play alone

one step at the time my friend... but yes and yes and yes you know the answers...so u might have to be creative...play for anyone that would listen...film yourself and upload...u get kind of the same nerves the second you know the camera is recording and we are gonna be watching....

first you need to accept it wont be as easy for you as it will be for others, sure its a sad reality but hey this are your playing cards..........but u love flamenco right ?...so you will find a way until it can be more real.

who knows u can be the first one to get it going ...and sure you might make mistakes ...but u make them even with a teacher...you will learn slowly as you go..

quote:

and how about accompaniment when i havent find any tocaor, cantaor or bailaor yet?

again it wont be as easy...but not impossible, this forum can help alot with accompanying a singer...ask whatever you need...from the simplest most basic to the most difficult...theres, instructional dvds, as you start to get more experienced u can practice along side cds...(there is a HUGE thread with about 30 pages covering ALOT about accompanying singing...and it has audios to practice with and it has videos with the chords etc...)

with dancers the same...there is a higher chance of a dancer eventually finding herself to your city or starting up flamenco...but until then...Jason McGuire i know has online lessons on dance accompanying..

have you really looked around for all the schools in your country ? even if they in a different city...most dancers know whats going on...u can write an email asking if they know of any dancers in your city...and a guitar teacher for that matter...u never know...there might be a dancer in your city wondering why there isn't a guitarist to practice with...

quote:

me ....after the mastering bit ....not long to go now ....I plan on lying down in a dark cool quiet room for a week or so ..............

i have already mastered it

...i am just here to master singing now

sorry qzack...you'l know why this is so funny starting about 4 to 5 years from now.....for the rest of your life....hopefully

and theory is such an deceiving word...it suggests something so academic and scientific and impossible to learn without reading some thick maths book....all u need to learn really is where to put your fingers and how to bend your hands and u can do that by just watching others on video, listening to cds and asking questions...eventually you will develop an understanding of do and donts.... trial and error....i know how to do a lot of things in flamenco i still don't remember sitting down and ever learning any "theory"...just learned where to put my fingers and copied those that knew...started out with a book just like yours....in fact it was the same book

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 1:32:34

Kalo

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

I just want to play on decent flamenco blanca, so, I can at least get to "Advance" Mastering

I, highly enjoy reading this "thread"

Kalo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 2:03:03

qzack

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

lol, i'll fix that optimistic statement lol

what i really trying to do is to share flamenco the way of the people in here might accept it by fusion of genres or anything like that
because here there's only a few that knows about flamenco
it requires at least basics understanding and skills of flamenco right?

for example
i've tried to play in front of my friends a simple rumba
but they dont know that i play flamenco
they recognize it as latin music or mariachi lol
and when i play even a simple bulerias using 3 diego del gastor falsetas and their response is that my style is way too complicated and its not an easy listening music

what they suggest is fusioning flamenco with mainstream genres like pop or jazz and etc

me personally dont really listen to them
but i think i'll try it later

but my first priority is to learn flamenco

cmiiw

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 2:12:55

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

but what do you love ? qzack...are you doing this for them or you ? there are many different styles and moods within flamenco....you can play something way happier and more upbeat and modern and eazyer on an non flamenco ear while still doing 100% flamenco...things like Granaina, Minera, Guajira etc...even bulerias...by a different artist or in a different key

Flamenco itself its like all of music together...within it there is thousands and thousands of styles moods and colors

if you gonna do flamenco sounding fusion...this isn't exactly the eazyest way to go about it...u can make an album tomorrow...if that's what you really wanna do...its like you are studying engineering to become a carpenter ...u are taking the longest possible route there

all you need for that is a nylon string guitar and perhaps a drum machine....don't need to know about proper flamenco technique, or dancers or singers or palos and you don't need to master flamenco AT ALL...with very few exceptions...people that do fusion flamenco are people who didn't have the patience to study flamenco but kind of like the sound and wanna do something now

if i wanted to do fusion i wouldn't bother with this s*it

.....flamenco is like a disease ...if you dont have it yet...run !! save yourself

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 2:16:39

qzack

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Florian)

i love flamenco
at first i dont really have any idea about fusing it with other genre

and i feel very different when i listen to some pieces they considered as fusions like paul gilbert's flamengo, seis cuerdas or any other that i didnt even remember their names

at first my view in learning flamenco is only focusing on compas and falsetas like kalo said. but the contradictions comes when i played in front of some "experts".
they said flamenco is in the 10th out of 10 ranks of genre in terms of its difficulity
and then they started to tell me about the ability to play simple songs first

then they push me to use pick instead of fingernails, arpeggios, rasguedos and stuffs, they force me to perform their genre even after the first try
but what i get is an agony and stress
even they said that im a loser and other demotivating stuffs

then i tried to confirm what they've offered to me as the absolute method in here
and well yeah even after i explained the differences like you all said here, they still trying to push me to do a fusion genre or at least able to play their styles that considered as "basics" in order to proceed to learn flamenco

but now i think i know where to learn

i've been here for about months as silent reader tough
so now i think i'll start to try to be active

btw thanks guys :D

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 2:59:49

botafoguense

Posts: 16
Joined: Jul. 18 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

Fight the system qzack! I'm sure most here will agree you've already made an excellent choice in wanting to persue flamenco, don't let the detractors get you down.

By the way, dari mana? :D

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 5:21:38

ninoderoberto

Posts: 13
Joined: Dec. 16 2006

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

Hi qzack, i'm also member in this foro since 2007, I live in jkt , where do you live?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 5:27:13

qzack

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to botafoguense)

Lol
A relief finally

I live in bandung
You?

@ninoderoberto

Which part of jakarta? I go to jakarta sometimes

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 6:36:43

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

qzack - tell all these people who are trying to subvert your love and desire to learn flamenco to f*** off. It's none of their business.

Music is art, and Flamenco is the high art of guitar, nothing comes close in the guitar world in my opinion. NOTHING.

Art is very personal, as you progress you will make what you love your own, discard what you don't love, then what is left is the essence of you and your expression. Don't let ANYONE take that from you, it is extremely precious, it is your truth.

A famous sculptor of horses (I have forgotten his name) was once asked "How do you create such perfect scuptures of horses?". He replied "It's easy, I just chip away anything that isn't horse.". After 30 years of playing music (not flamenco though, I'm a total n00b!) I have started to recognise the 'form' that my inner music takes, my musical 'horse'. I'm learning to chip away what isn't me.

I hope that makes some sort of sense :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 10:09:56

That_Guy

Posts: 48
Joined: May 31 2012
From: Abingdon, VA

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to silddx)

quote:

tell all these people who are trying to subvert your love and desire to learn flamenco to f*** off.

A little harsh...

What I think some members were trying to say, was that he said he wanted to master flamenco and move on to another genre. It will take a long time to master flamenco, if he ever does!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 18:46:12

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to That_Guy)

Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear enough. I meant the teachers and friends he's getting 'opinions' from :) NOT the esteemed members of this forum who have given great help and advice from what I have read.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 18:55:45

That_Guy

Posts: 48
Joined: May 31 2012
From: Abingdon, VA

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to silddx)

Ahh!

That makes sense. I misinterpreted. I apologize!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 19:18:18

qzack

Posts: 39
Joined: Aug. 17 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to That_Guy)

I apologize for being overconfident and bad in explaining my problem to you guys
And bad english

So what i was trying to ask is about the possibility to start to learn guitar from flamenco instead of crossing into the other genre first like all of my teacher and friend said and that is uncomfortable for me.

Because at the first time i introduced them flamenco, i know nothing about ALL chords, theories of musical notation and they said that its impossible and hard to learn musical basics from flamenco so they tell me to try "simpler genre" to shape my theoritical knowledge, accompaniment skills, harmonizations and so on

And also they told me that by learning and able to play multi-genre i can satisfy "people's" taste in majority so later i can share flamenco in the way that is "acceptable" to non-flamenco ears

Then i started to think of sharing flamenco to these "audiences" the way they might accept
But i think its wrong because by sharing the "mixtures"
It would also results in different feel for myself

That's not what i want, i told them that what i want is people to accept flamenco the way it is, instead of "mixtures".. I dont really mind when people dont understand flamenco
And but they keep answering me like its impossible to learn flamenco without the ability to play "simple genre" and its useless to play alone because people might wont accept flamenco of its complexity so they persuade me to do a fusion

Then i start to think to confirm those things here
That's when this thread was born

Cmiiw

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 21:58:59

Kalo

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

quote:

And but they keep answering me like its impossible to learn flamenco without the ability to play "simple genre" and its useless to play alone because people might wont accept flamenco of its complexity so they persuade me to do a fusion

Hi qzack,

Playing simple genre first before learning flamenco...Well, yeah, you can always pick up electric guitar and play a bunch of power chords. It for sure would get you jamming right away! You would develop your right and left hand FOR ELECTRIC guitar.

Best bet is learning the AMERCIAN Blues which has a 1, 4, 5, chord progression that you can solo over..

I mean you can learn anything in Rock, Metal, Punk, Blues, Pop, etc. and entertain your friends and the masses..

However, I don't think being able to play those types of style will prepare you for being a flamenco guitarist!!!

Learning and playing flamenco is a whole different world and will take some time! It may not give you IMMEDIATE SATISFACTION the way popular music will.

I've been playing electric guitar for 8 years and jam rock, metal, blues, and cool semi jazz

To me when switching from electric guitar over to flamenco, I felt like I was learning a whole new instrument...

But, I LOVE it and I really don't care whether my friends, family understand it..

If it were up to them I should be on stage rocking out to a bunch of licks with the wah wah pedal...

The bottom line is if you are interested in other styles of music, maybe it would be better to invest in a cheap electric guitar!

Test the waters and see if you even like playing and practicing guitar...If you do then switch over to flamenco guitar...

However, If YOUR PASSION IS TRULY FLAMENCO, then forget about rock, pop, etc. and learn flamenco guitar!

Kalo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2012 0:25:31

silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to Kalo)

kalo, I think that is absolutely right, great post. I've been playing for 30 odd years, and have a pro gig on electric guitar. I'm pretty good and have been told I have good musicality and sympatico with the music and other musicians. However, this has not really prepared me for flamenco at all, other than the left hand ability I have. From a right hand perspective, I am a complete beginner. I feel like a baby.

But, I am learning flamenco purely for my own pleasure. Most of my friends don't get it, they prefer stuff like Bert Jansch and Johnny Marr :) Flamenco is not really easy on the ears for the uninitiated. However, I loved it from a young age. The pro sitarist I play with is pleased though, flamenco has roots in India, and some of the disciplines are similar, especially compas. I'm hoping to bring some flamenco techniques and colours to her compositions eventually, but it remains the Stratocaster for now :) That WILL be fusion music, but I want to learn the real flamenco for myself. No-one can get in the way of that, and I hope qzack follows his true path.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2012 12:53:21

Kalo

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011

RE: [HELP+ASK] i want to learn flame... (in reply to qzack)

quote:

]Most of my friends don't get it, they prefer stuff like Bert Jansch and Johnny Marr

Hi Sliddx

Aaaah GREAT guitar players as I love them as well!!

I was thinking that qzack could also "test the waters" and get himself a cheap flamenco giutar...I am not sure his budget, but, maybe a Yamaha or Fransico Navarro Student Flamenco guitar...He could learn some Rumba flamenco..

At least this way it can develop both hands and he can entertain his family, friends, etc.

Whatever path you take...Good Luck and do what is true to you!!!

Kalo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2012 14:39:47

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