Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeFP14vsLuthier Built($2,000-3,000USD)

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ibanezx123

Posts: 19
Joined: May 13 2012

Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeFP14v...

Ramirez FL 2 VS Felipe Conde FP 14

These two guitars are priced about the same, 3,000 USD and 3,200 USD roughly.

I have found material to form my own opinion on the Ramirez FL2 but i have not found any sound clips of the Conde FP 14 yet, i did have to dig through their site to find it, like a guitar in the very back corner with many others piled on it...as a metaphor.

These aren't the only guitars i'm considering but they're the two highest quality that i am considering. So if i end up looking for something cheaper; that will be another post.

So Please any opinions greatly appreciated.
Here is a sound clip of the Ramirez:

Here is the website for the conde, but no sound clip >< someone pls! post a sound ahhhhh.
http://www.condehermanos.com/en/catalogue/List/show/fp-14-205

and hopefully someone has a Conde FP 14 to share their experience or video clip =D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2012 1:15:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Need Opinions Ramirez FL2 VS Fel... (in reply to ibanezx123)

Both makers make relatively fantasitc guitars (or have in the past) in the 5-6K range (despite what others might argue, you CAN find A model guitars for sale used in that price range in decent shape). As you look lower in their catalogues of B models in all cases you are looking at guitars contracted out more often then not, in Valencia by makers in calibur of Sanchis Alhambra etc. If you compare them you have similar price ranges with original makers, but always cheaper then any with a "conde" or "Ramirez" label.

For example, the 3K Conde I doubt is as good as Hermanos Sanchis Lopez 1F which is probably still cheaper. My recommendation is just go for orginal name guitars from Valencia, OR save up the extra 2k and patiently wait to find a used A concert model instrument.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2012 12:02:50

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Need Opinions Ramirez FL2 VS Fel... (in reply to ibanezx123)

FL2 is not bad (I've got one), especially when it comes to student instrument - NOT french polish.

Perhaps spending only a thousand dollars more, you can have a guitar made from a Luthier.

My little personal experience is that a Luthier guitar (3000 euro = less than 4000$ ) can stand a Conde or Ramirez with a cost of $ 10,000 or more!

Ricardo is right! I would better check around.

(perhaps .....consider the excellent Luthiers members in this forum! )

good luck!
ciao,
giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2012 13:39:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Need Opinions Ramirez FL2 VS Fel... (in reply to gbv1158)

quote:

My little personal experience is that a Luthier guitar (3000 euro = less than 4000$ ) can stand a Conde or Ramirez with a cost of $ 10,000 or more!

THat would be a new guitar as since the euro change over. That is why I specified USED guitars are the best deal. (used conde's should not be going for 10 K, nor Ramirez).

Of the luthier made to order guitars of makers on this foro, I have played both Anders and Culpepper, both compareable in this price range and both very good in terms of sound and set up, definantly superior to Valenia guitars. I would need some time and more examples to recommend one over the other at this point. With only two examples I would generalize Anders going for a more strong midrange and culpepper going for more brightness, but I would really need em side by side.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2012 14:21:34

Don Dionisio

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Need Opinions Ramirez FL2 VS Fel... (in reply to ibanezx123)

There are several luthiers on this forum that make great handmade
guitars to your specifications. I have personal experience
with guitars by Aaron Green, Peter Tsiorba, Andy Culpepper, and
have heard great recordings of Stephen Faulk, Anders Elliason,
as well as Glen Canin, and Ethan Deutsch.
I am sure I left someone off the list (unintentionally). The point
is why spend 3k on a factory made guitar when you could get one from
a great maker for a bit less or more depending on your choice of maker.
I doubt that resale is very good on these factory guitars as well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2012 14:25:40

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Need Opinions Ramirez FL2 VS Fel... (in reply to Don Dionisio)

quote:

I have personal experience
with guitars by Aaron Green, Peter Tsiorba, Andy Culpepper, and
have heard great recordings of Stephen Faulk, Anders Elliason,
as well as Glen Canin, and Ethan Deutsch.

As many know here in the forum, I have a negra and a blanca made by Anders Eliasson........so in my personal experience I would say that the difference between my FL2 and one of these two guitars is like between the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean! :-)

ciao,
giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2012 17:00:43

ibanezx123

Posts: 19
Joined: May 13 2012

RE: Need Opinions Ramirez FL2 VS Fel... (in reply to gbv1158)

Ahhh ok, Thanks for the info....One of the main reasons i brought up the Ramirez FL2 is because i am left handed and there is a lefty in a store in NY that i could buy. So i feel like mostly my only options would be to either get the FL2 or have someone build me a guitar.

Andy has offered to make me one, and i am really considering it, i really like his Blanca 2a model. I know Tsiorba's are insanely good but maybe just a tad out of my price range. Anders is bad ass, only issues would be a bit out of price again and how to ship from spain to USA.

so maybe i should just wait a while and save up more, or get a culpeppers =D

@Ricardo "you are looking at guitars contracted out more often then not"
Yeah i think i have read on another forum that the FL2 is definitely contracted out and i've found on another forum...somebody compared 4 different FL2's and obviously they were all a bit different...so idk maybe a builder would be more reliable/consistent.

And if i'm completely honest the FL2 isn't exactly what i'd want, i would really like a mostly traditional blanca, i do like pegs and have been itching to see if those geared pegs work well or not, also the finish used on the FL2 in NY looks a bit yellow/orange, this wouldn't be a deal breaker but i'd prefer a clear finish that really shows off the wood in it's most natural form, and because that's what a traditional one would have.

Andy Culpepper: Blanca 2A($2,200) is willing to make a lefty for me, in this right handed world; respect :)

Here's a list of some of the lower priced guitars i was considering:
Cordoba 45FP($800) I've heard someone say they were disappointment in that this guitar didn't project sound loud enough for their liking. and someone on this forum has already convinced me that this would be a bad choice.
Loriente "carmen" Blanca($2,000)
Salvador Castillo Estudio($1,900) aesthetically looks ok but don't like the headstock much, but more importantly haven't heard a sound clip either.
Pavan($1695, but they only make a flamenco negra and i want a blanca)
Hill guitar company P650F Standard-Flamenco(player series ($1595) Haven't found out much about this guitar yet)

Then again could i find these in left-handed? or order them lefty? not sure.

I'm sure there are others but must be really hard to find, i've been searching the net for like 4 days straight haha trying to figure out the best option for me.

So i would say budget-wise 3,000USD is about as high as i'd be willing to go right now, so it might be best to just wait a while longer and save up or find a builder for around 2,000-3,000(yeah 1,000 would be nice but no way i can find a builder for that much haha)....so far the only builders for that price that i have found is either Culpepper or Castillo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2012 19:11:30

Don Dionisio

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeF... (in reply to ibanezx123)

If you live in NY, go and visit Andy Culpepper. He is a good player and knows how to set up
a flamenco guitar. A good friend of mine has one and I have played it many times. It is a
great guitar-at any price, and evn better because they are so reasonable. When Ricardo mentioned that he played one of Andy's guitars, he is talking about this one.
There are other players on the forum that own his guitars also and are happy with them.
Good luck.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2012 19:36:17

ibanezx123

Posts: 19
Joined: May 13 2012

RE: Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeF... (in reply to Don Dionisio)

@ don, ahhh cool actually i live in San diego, CA. kind of a coincidence that the Ramirez and culpepper are both in NY haha, both guitars i'm really considering. I think i have phased out the castillo from my list, so i think now it's mostly between, Ramirez FL2, andy culpepper, and any other builder i can find for 2,000-3000 or less of course.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2012 19:42:31

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeF... (in reply to ibanezx123)

I'd say that even if you're going for the great names you won't necessarily have to spend more than 4000$ for a used 1a. You live in the US so there are plenty of used instruments that can be delivered to you from within the country.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 22 2012 17:10:19

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeF... (in reply to ibanezx123)

ibanezx--you have the opportunity to get a luthier built guitar made for a left handed guitar for $2200--from a luthier who has a good reputation. the decision should be very easy to make.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2012 1:35:06

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeF... (in reply to ibanezx123)

What keith said.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2012 19:39:35

ibanezx123

Posts: 19
Joined: May 13 2012

RE: Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeF... (in reply to keith)

yeah i think i've decided that if i can have him build me what i want, in my price range...that'd be the best way to go. but there are a few little details i need to work out and see how much that would add to the cost.

i'd rather get exactly what i want for 1,000 dollars less, by a builder than pay 1,000 more for a guitar that has some compromises that's also commissioned out to cheap labor during the building process.

so now i'm just in the process of discussing with him, the specific things i want and how much extra that'd add to the cost. basically just pricing out the exact guitar i want...and i'll see if it's in my budget or if i'll have to save up more.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2012 23:35:35

Don Dionisio

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeF... (in reply to ibanezx123)

Who is the luthier?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2012 11:16:51

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeF... (in reply to ibanezx123)

Who ever will build you a guitar for 2200.00 should be nominated for sainthood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2012 17:51:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeF... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Who ever will build you a guitar for 2200.00 should be nominated for sainthood.

I was surprised how good culpepper's guitars were for the price.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2012 20:13:18

Shawn Brock

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeF... (in reply to ibanezx123)

Just goes to show the difference in opinion of people... I have 2 Castillos and think they are among the best guitars I have ever played, and am nuts about the headstocks. I don't know why you would be willing to pay $1900 for the lower model when you could go up to his top of the line blancas for $2400/ $2800, and that's after shipping. Also Navarro would be an option... Plus I thought the lower model was like $1500?

I haven't played any of Andy's guitars, but you will be doing yourself a favor if you get one from him. I would say Andy, Castillo, Navarro, Ethan Deutsch or something used. You can get something from one of them that will be a lot more guitar than the money you paid to get it. Like I said, if $3000 is the max that would be the best options. After shipping and taxes you would have over $3000 in one of Anders's guitar's, that's the only reason I didn't put him on the list.

Its your money, but you'll be getting a whole lot less guitar if you go with that factory Ramirez or Conde. You can buy the same guitar from the same factory without those labels for up to $1500 less. $1500 more for a label is just to much IMO. Especially when it won't help you sell it. But its your money.

You may also want to visit Guitar Salon International down in L.A. At least you can see the factory Conde and Ramirez in person and have some right handed player play them. You can also have the player go through a few more guitars. At that point your ear will tell you all you need to know about those $3000 factory guitars. I mean come on! I know $3000 isn't a huge among of money, but it dam sure is when your paying that much for a guitar that's made in a factory. The key word here is factory...

If you go with one of the luthier guitars you won't be needing to upgrade. You will have an instrument that will hold value, sound good and play good, that was made for you! It was made for you, not just some dumb chump, but for you. That also means a lot IMO. This just seems like a no-brainer to me... 10 years from now you won't be able to get a guitar from any of these guys for $3000, but you'll be able to pick up these factory guitars sold today for $300/ $1000. Just a few weeks ago I saw a Conde student model from the 70's on EBay for $1000. I'm willing to bet that 70's student Conde was a better guitar than these $3000 student models they are selling now...

You have a lot of opportunity there in your location to hear some good guitars. Seems like you would be just pissing it away by just ordering one of these factory guitars sight unseen, and sound unplayed. If nothing else you could find a good flamenco on craigslist and have it set up for a left hander. You could find a better Conde for $3000 than this student model, and just have it set up. Gosh! Come on man!!!!!!!!!!!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2012 20:25:02

ibanezx123

Posts: 19
Joined: May 13 2012

RE: Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeF... (in reply to Shawn Brock)

haha @ shawn well thanks for the input. and taking a closer look at the castillos, yeah the headstock isn't to bad, it's just the shape on the outer edges reminds me of the guitars ruben diaz has haha but also i bet in person that shape wouldn't stick out as much on the castillo and it'd be easier to see the whole picture.
and yes the builder i am referring to is none other than, Mr. Culpepper. after listening to more of his recordings and hearing how he listens to the customer and is also able to give his opinion and input, that's perfect. But also not to mention
another distinction between the ramirez and Mr. Culpepper...Ramirez is mostly known for their classicals right? well me and Mr. Culpepper share the same passion for flamenco, and i think we might even both like a guitar that has balls, that's loud and has a punchy tone, so really i don't think i could have chose anyone better.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2012 20:55:29

Shawn Brock

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: Need Opinions:RamirezFL2vsCondeF... (in reply to ibanezx123)

There you go! Now your on the right track. Andy will build you a hell of a guitar, and you'll be happy.

Don't get me wrong, I love Ramirez, the older ones that is. I don't know anything about what they do now except for offer over priced factory guitars, and $12000 hand made guitars. I haven't played any of their new hand made guitars, (which are over priced), but feel confident that they aren't as good as their guitars from the 60's...

Andy will do you a fine job and you'll have a true guitar. Not some over priced box made of bad woods, covered in thick lacquer and built by someone who has no passion or little know-how about making guitars. If I were you I would put my order in and pay the deposit to get on his growing waiting list before his prices go up...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2012 23:11:11