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Solo Guitar?
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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 Solo Guitar?
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I was just reading some interesting posts on the CG Forum.
I have always been transfixed by a great Flamenco player playing solo.
Mike (de Maria) made what I think is a very valid observation...that is that folk don't want solo guitar, they want something more...some bass, cajon, palmas, flute etc..
Something that they can groove to.
I think Mike's absolutely right here.
Folk are so used to listening to "produced" music now, that solo guitar would probably sound very "thin" to them I guess.
Personally, solo guitar...stripped of any adornments whatsoever is what turns me on most.
No palmas, backing tracks....nothing.
This is how PdL, Peña, etc played back in the 60's, early 70's and I still find it the most mind boggling display of virtuosity just to see one guy up there giving it hell!
The more you add to it, the more you water it down IMO.
Nothing to hide behind...you had to be your own rhythm section as well as play.
PdL could do this easily, as anybody who has seen him play solo can vouch for.
The guy was his own Band!
This is only my personal taste though....how do you guys feel?
cheers
Ron
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Date Jun. 4 2005 21:02:59
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Solo Guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
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Personally, sometimes people make extreme statements but I think it behooves all musical people to make some effort to appreciate all music. I mean... on a particular day, I may listen to Tomatito's "Paseo," switch to smoky voiced singer Cesaria Ovara doing her mixture of groovy Caribbean sounding stuff, listen to a little Bach for solo cello by Pablo Casals, maybe even listen to The Waterboys or Camaron or Billy Joel! The more I learn about music, the more I enjoy every bit of it.
To be honest, though, solo guitar isn't as exciting as other forms, at least not intrinsically. A group is exciting because it is loud and has interplay between different people. A soloist is exciting more because of transcending what he is supposed to not be able to do... I think a singer is always going to have an advantage in using the most immediate, direct, and natural form of expression, and any instrumentalist will struggle to exceed that. But none of it is necessary. I don't need to listen to all cante like some people do, nor do I have to listen to all instrumental music. I can listen to it all.
Today I treated myself to listening to the Pasacalle in C Minor played on organ. This piece by Bach is similiar to Chaconne, which is often played on guitar, in that it uses a repetitive chord progression. Incidentally, the Chaconne and Pasacalle may be from Spain originally. This is a somber and beautiful piece that is just haunting. I get a neat thrill of being in the presence of genius when I listen to some of Bach's bigger pieces. The organ really is a creepy instrument and I kind of wish it hadn't disappeared. It's the king of instruments! You should see the one in the cathedral at Seville.
The groove thing comes from an observation one of my partners here in Phoenix made. He is kind of an ignoramus in some ways in that he hates classical music and can't stand to listen to it. He believes that the current style is that most people need some sort of beat, which can be provided by drums, bass, or even an acoustic guitar played percussively. It has certainly been my experience that in general he is spot on. Today I played a gig and started tapping my foot. To my surprise the taps made by my boots were audible and sharp, almost like taconeo, due to the tile. I started using it kind of as an accompaniment to my more rhythmic pieces and found the effect kind of cool.
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Date Jun. 4 2005 23:46:56
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Solo Guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
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I agree to some extent to what you guys are saying. But I think palmas add to a guitar performance, they don't water it down. Palmas are one of the coolest things about flamenco, and make the performance overall more rhythmically intense. I understand in the old days, the falsetas, even for bulerias, were very "on beat" and you did not really NEED palmas.
But nowadays the synchopation is a very colorful and emotional part of the flamenco feeling and sound. It is nice to hear and feel the interaction of the guitar w/ percussion, at least in the rhythmical forms. Of course the guitarist can choose to go with nothing, like Nunez did in Sevilla. But listen to PDL's "fantasia", he does two cool counter time falsetas in "El Tempul", and you can feel it by the way he uses the spaces. But for me, as a performance, it does not come close to the next record's "Punta del Faro". The palmas add such a dimension, such a feeling. Just try to imagine that piece without those amazing palmas...
When I got into flamenco I forced some of my music buddies to listen. Some of the "rhythmically challenged" guys complainded "what's with the annoying clapping?". Others were baffled at how the speedy clapping was achieved and maintained, and were impressed by the "tightness". I guess your tastes may depend on what you are focusing on when you listen to something.
If a cajon player is good, not just keeping time, it can also add a nice flavor to a guitar "solo" piece. But flute, bass, etc, that is something else.
Ricardo
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Date Jun. 5 2005 5:06:44
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Guest
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RE: Solo Guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
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I used to listen a lot to flamenco solo guitar, but not anymore. I sometimes feel it lacks interaction. Even with me as a listener. It's like its distant. Whereas if there is cante and/or percussion involved, I feel I, as a listener, am more a part of the music.
Before, I listened to solo guitar because I wanted to play like this or that guy or because I wanted to learn a falseta. Now I listen to flamenco because I'm in the mood for that. It's the music that drags me and not so much my personal flamenco.
Same thing happened when I played classical violin. At first I concentrated on things that were very related to my playing. With the years I changed and started listening more and more to the composition and not so much to the instrument. Now I prefer classical music with voice. Not Italian opera, but whatever like medieval music, Mahler symphonies or contemporary choir.
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Date Jun. 5 2005 8:50:04
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gerundino63
Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands
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RE: Solo Guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
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I agree fully with Ron here.
I like the guitar standing on his own, like I like Piano on his own.
If I want a band, I can listen to the Roling stones, the beatles, or even young Elvis Presley.
If a falseta needs clapping, i do not like the falseta, i think every flamenco solo falseta must be able to stand alone.
Flameno do not use the single note style like Jazz guitar, in other words, we try to play on it like it is a piano,that makes it interesting, and if you are good at that, you do not need other instruments.
Just like a good Piano Recital from List, needs no drumms.
Peter
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Date Jun. 5 2005 15:20:49
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Solo Guitar? (in reply to Barney)
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Barney,
one thing I have noticed, and that is the amateur musician and the reality of the pro. musician are just about diametrically opposed. This doesnt' refer to anyone on this website in particular, but just what I have noticed in my dealings with musicians. There are a couple interesting elements to this discussion:
1. a need to be embraced by the establishment: most amateur musicians and average audience hold this to be the highest ideal--a record contract from a big company, reviews from a big newspaper or "impartial" observer, endorsements from known artists or famous people. The other side of this coin is a disdain for "self promotion"--someone who takes his own destiny into his own hands is looked a bit askance at, a type of social climber who ignores his lack of talent and in an unseeming way tries to make it his own way.
2. a disdain for money: those who don't get paid for playing, or who don't rely on it, seem to think that getting paid to play "taints" artistry in some way. Their favorite image seems to be the barber who plays guitar better than Paco, or the guy who works in the forge but sings better than the sellouts on stage. The other side of this coin is that anyone who gets paid and/or plays music that the audience likes is less talented, less devoted to music, tacky, of wanting moral compass.
These phenomena at first surprised me, but I have come to regard them as routine. It seems to me that many amateur musicians are threatened by the fact that some people get paid, so they erect these walls or conditions in order to diffuse it, a kind of defensive behavior. It is clear that if you don't believe in self promotion, then you will always be in your room playing the guitar. It is clear that if think that money taints art, then you will never get paid for it. It is also clear that the guy who plays 8 hours a day is going to play better than the guy who only does it twice a week.
The American poet Walt Whitman, now thought of as one of the greats, printed his first collection in a so-called "vanity press" (the word insinuates that if someone prints their own work, it must not be worth anything, 'real' artists are discovered and promoted by other 'disinterested' parties). He also wrote an article anonymously extolling its virtues in a newspaper! Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc. wrote professionally, not in a museum. They were expected to write music that people liked. Da Vinci, Michelangelo, etc. painted on commission, as well. Did money "taint" the Sistine Chapel?
Art and Money will always be intricately related. Most of the best art of all time has been created with and for money, and little of the best art has been made without it. The fact is that professionals have a unique position to do great work because, well, that's their job. It's an interesting irony that amateurs often denigrate the very things which could raise them to the level of the pro.
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Date Jun. 5 2005 16:16:06
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Guest
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RE: Solo Guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
According to the guitar/ CD shops which sell the CD locally many people ask if the CD is solo instrumental as they dont like cante. They say that solo guitar sells better here, at least to the tourists who want to take home a taste of Spain and of course to the guitar students. I guess it depends on what and where your market is.
That's true. When I worked in a shop in Granada I often heard this. Flamenco Cante is not for everyone, and a lot of people interested in flamenco prefer when there's no cante. It's easyer for them to listen to a solo guitar album.
I generally prefer flamenco with other instruments than just guitar, being cante or percussion, but what I don't like is the tendency to make solo guitar albums sound like elevator music. Some "advanced" chords, a bandless bass, a cajon, some palmas and a group of singers singing le - le - le. This gives me the creep.
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Date Jun. 5 2005 20:37:26
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Jamey
Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada
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RE: Solo Guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
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Well, not that my opinion means much but here's my two cents anyway.....
I hate over production and over playing (playing that goes too tangential and does so for it's own sake rather than artestry of music and composition). I don't mind if there are other instruments in the mix so long as it doesn't turn into a flurried, flakey mess (I point to the latter part of the track "Calima" on Nuñez' CD of the same name - starts out pretty good but I skip it once the piano starts going bananas and the whole thing turns into a jazz festival set).
I love cante, not all cantaores but cante in general. I particularly like cante with no accompanyment (or very sparce accompanyment) or just palmas (perhaps because I mentally try to fill in the rest or sometimes try to play along). Lately though it's been Morente accompanied by Sabícas when he was very old, and Camarón with Tomatíto on the "Live in Paris" recording.
I do like solo guitar a lot, but it has to be done a certain way for me. It has to be telling a story in it's own right. "Hondo" by P. Habichuela is a pretty good example of this. Listen to it at the end of the day when you're tired and it's quiet and late. A completely solitary, late-at-night introspective sort of thing. That works well for me. I like Sabícas as a guitarist, reference point and source of knowledge and inspiration. However, there are times when I'm listening to an album of his that is nothing but him playing frenetically and after a short time, it simply becomes too much to listen to and not as enjoyable.
Guitar and chello when arranged well can be interesting too. Same with flute (Juan Diego has both on his "Luminaria", though not on the same songs - done very well).
Throw a sax in there and I stop listening. Through any electric guitar (particularly distorted) and I can't hit the stop button fast enough. For me, they have no business being shoe-horned into a flamenco piece because it completely ruins it for me. I don't mind either of them on their own in other music forms but not flamenco.
Now I'm just rambling....bloody fatigue.....
Oh yeah and one other thing, I absolutely HATE castanets. They irritate me to the point of violence. I don't know what it is but I just want to smash them to tiny pieces when I hear them.
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Date Jun. 9 2005 4:07:44
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