Solo Guitar? (Full Version)

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Ron.M -> Solo Guitar? (Jun. 4 2005 21:02:59)

I was just reading some interesting posts on the CG Forum.
I have always been transfixed by a great Flamenco player playing solo.
Mike (de Maria) made what I think is a very valid observation...that is that folk don't want solo guitar, they want something more...some bass, cajon, palmas, flute etc..
Something that they can groove to.
I think Mike's absolutely right here.
Folk are so used to listening to "produced" music now, that solo guitar would probably sound very "thin" to them I guess.
Personally, solo guitar...stripped of any adornments whatsoever is what turns me on most.
No palmas, backing tracks....nothing.
This is how PdL, Peña, etc played back in the 60's, early 70's and I still find it the most mind boggling display of virtuosity just to see one guy up there giving it hell!
The more you add to it, the more you water it down IMO.
Nothing to hide behind...you had to be your own rhythm section as well as play.
PdL could do this easily, as anybody who has seen him play solo can vouch for.
The guy was his own Band!

This is only my personal taste though....how do you guys feel?

cheers

Ron




ToddK -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 4 2005 21:48:44)

People may tend to like a fuller arrangment, but i believe its
sometimes because they havent had the exposure.

I had a friend who was not really into solo guitar, until i took
him to GW one year, to see Paco de Lucia.

eeeeyaah, that opened a can of worms that he'll never close.LOL

Sure, i could have taken somebody, and they could have sat there
and didnt get it, but you get my point.

Sometimes people need guidance!! :) LOL Its YOUR job to educate them![8D]

Well, not really... But i think its better to try, than to give up and always
give them what they think they want.
TK




Escribano -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 4 2005 23:06:55)

quote:

until i took him to GW one year, to see Paco de Lucia.


Do you mean GWU? [;)]




Miguel de Maria -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 4 2005 23:46:56)

Personally, sometimes people make extreme statements but I think it behooves all musical people to make some effort to appreciate all music. I mean... on a particular day, I may listen to Tomatito's "Paseo," switch to smoky voiced singer Cesaria Ovara doing her mixture of groovy Caribbean sounding stuff, listen to a little Bach for solo cello by Pablo Casals, maybe even listen to The Waterboys or Camaron or Billy Joel! The more I learn about music, the more I enjoy every bit of it.

To be honest, though, solo guitar isn't as exciting as other forms, at least not intrinsically. A group is exciting because it is loud and has interplay between different people. A soloist is exciting more because of transcending what he is supposed to not be able to do... I think a singer is always going to have an advantage in using the most immediate, direct, and natural form of expression, and any instrumentalist will struggle to exceed that. But none of it is necessary. I don't need to listen to all cante like some people do, nor do I have to listen to all instrumental music. I can listen to it all.

Today I treated myself to listening to the Pasacalle in C Minor played on organ. This piece by Bach is similiar to Chaconne, which is often played on guitar, in that it uses a repetitive chord progression. Incidentally, the Chaconne and Pasacalle may be from Spain originally. This is a somber and beautiful piece that is just haunting. I get a neat thrill of being in the presence of genius when I listen to some of Bach's bigger pieces. The organ really is a creepy instrument and I kind of wish it hadn't disappeared. It's the king of instruments! You should see the one in the cathedral at Seville.

The groove thing comes from an observation one of my partners here in Phoenix made. He is kind of an ignoramus in some ways in that he hates classical music and can't stand to listen to it. He believes that the current style is that most people need some sort of beat, which can be provided by drums, bass, or even an acoustic guitar played percussively. It has certainly been my experience that in general he is spot on. Today I played a gig and started tapping my foot. To my surprise the taps made by my boots were audible and sharp, almost like taconeo, due to the tile. I started using it kind of as an accompaniment to my more rhythmic pieces and found the effect kind of cool.




Ricardo -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 5:06:44)

I agree to some extent to what you guys are saying. But I think palmas add to a guitar performance, they don't water it down. Palmas are one of the coolest things about flamenco, and make the performance overall more rhythmically intense. I understand in the old days, the falsetas, even for bulerias, were very "on beat" and you did not really NEED palmas.

But nowadays the synchopation is a very colorful and emotional part of the flamenco feeling and sound. It is nice to hear and feel the interaction of the guitar w/ percussion, at least in the rhythmical forms. Of course the guitarist can choose to go with nothing, like Nunez did in Sevilla. But listen to PDL's "fantasia", he does two cool counter time falsetas in "El Tempul", and you can feel it by the way he uses the spaces. But for me, as a performance, it does not come close to the next record's "Punta del Faro". The palmas add such a dimension, such a feeling. Just try to imagine that piece without those amazing palmas...

When I got into flamenco I forced some of my music buddies to listen. Some of the "rhythmically challenged" guys complainded "what's with the annoying clapping?". Others were baffled at how the speedy clapping was achieved and maintained, and were impressed by the "tightness". I guess your tastes may depend on what you are focusing on when you listen to something.

If a cajon player is good, not just keeping time, it can also add a nice flavor to a guitar "solo" piece. But flute, bass, etc, that is something else.

Ricardo




Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 5:25:43)

Ron;

We all have different opinions and interests. Although I do like solo flamenco guitar especially in the hands of a master my preference in flamenco is my own.

I like to have palmas, cante, baile, guitar, and Castañuelas together as if they were one. When done correctly they are in fact one as far as my feelings go. My preference is to have guitar as an element in the background. Emphasis is upon the other elements.

I have spent many hours playing guitar both accompaniment and solo. By far the most fun is when I play with and for others who are also involved with flamenco, professionally and for family. There is an interchange that a soloist does not have. The soloist plays for and against the audience all too often. There is a lot of pressure on the soloist. The audience interest is somewhat limited. Add the dimension of additional elements and you increase interest.

Well, this is just my opinion and take on the subject. I have spent so many hours playing solo guitar to learn, and it is much more fun to share with others who express flamenco in different ways as well as fellow guitarists. Together we raise the roof! [:D]




Guest -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 8:50:04)

I used to listen a lot to flamenco solo guitar, but not anymore. I sometimes feel it lacks interaction. Even with me as a listener. It's like its distant. Whereas if there is cante and/or percussion involved, I feel I, as a listener, am more a part of the music.

Before, I listened to solo guitar because I wanted to play like this or that guy or because I wanted to learn a falseta. Now I listen to flamenco because I'm in the mood for that. It's the music that drags me and not so much my personal flamenco.

Same thing happened when I played classical violin. At first I concentrated on things that were very related to my playing. With the years I changed and started listening more and more to the composition and not so much to the instrument. Now I prefer classical music with voice. Not Italian opera, but whatever like medieval music, Mahler symphonies or contemporary choir.




Doitsujin -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 14:25:26)

quote:

The more you add to it, the more you water it down IMO.

It depends on what you like more.
Traditional flamenco-puro or flamenco of today.
I think flamenco of today is clother to main-stream-music. There are loops and many other instruments, which make the piece rounder. I like it more.
I think its easyer to hear modern guitar-solo than traditional, coz its more musically than traditional compositions I think. I love to hear the contramarco and all the other instruments in flamenco. (Piano,cajon,keyboard) except flute.
Traditional is like beginners stuff of today. (Harmonically)Its not very interesting coz there are no details in the compositions. Its very simple. The modern pieces are full of suprises, and its not so easy to get behind it.
Please dont jump on me, only my opinion. (^_-)




gerundino63 -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 15:20:49)

I agree fully with Ron here.

I like the guitar standing on his own, like I like Piano on his own.

If I want a band, I can listen to the Roling stones, the beatles, or even young Elvis Presley.

If a falseta needs clapping, i do not like the falseta, i think every flamenco solo falseta must be able to stand alone.

Flameno do not use the single note style like Jazz guitar, in other words, we try to play on it like it is a piano,that makes it interesting, and if you are good at that, you do not need other instruments.

Just like a good Piano Recital from List, needs no drumms.

Peter




Barney -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 15:29:02)

Solo Flamenco guitar can be a real treat if to watch/listen to if played well. However, in terms of a gig, 98% of your audience will probably not be guitarists therefore not appreciate what is being played, so I guess a balance between what you like, what the auidience likes and artistic integrity is what's needed. I'm recording a CD at the moment, and I think there will probably 2 tracks which are just solo guitar, as any more would be too much for potential listeners. A friend of mine once said "If a musician likes it, you're on to a commerical loser"




Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 15:53:47)

quote:

98% of your audience will probably not be guitarists therefore not appreciate what is being played


My experience in performance started in 1951 (I was nine) with the Piano and 1960 with guitar. I notice a few things have changed with audience appreciation. In general audiences appreciate musicians who do a reasonable job. It seems that they are sympathetic towards anyone who is on stage in front of an audience. A mistake here or there is not the end of the world. Like one of my teachers said, “If you make a mistake just keep playing”! It works! [:D]

One thing that has changed is that audiences seem to like fast picado (or picking – depending upon your style) and over amplified sound. Loud is good! Thee are different types of audiences and somewhat dependant upon the presentation. Some people go to enjoy themselves and others go to criticize.




Thomas Whiteley -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 15:58:08)

quote:

palmas add to a guitar performance


I have to agree!

One thing I love about palmas (when done correctly) is the addition of counter plamas. Cammen Amaya’s family was good at this technique.

One more element that is sometimes presented in a flamenco gathering is the rapping of knuckles or fingers on the top of a table.




Miguel de Maria -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 16:16:06)

Barney,
one thing I have noticed, and that is the amateur musician and the reality of the pro. musician are just about diametrically opposed. This doesnt' refer to anyone on this website in particular, but just what I have noticed in my dealings with musicians. There are a couple interesting elements to this discussion:

1. a need to be embraced by the establishment: most amateur musicians and average audience hold this to be the highest ideal--a record contract from a big company, reviews from a big newspaper or "impartial" observer, endorsements from known artists or famous people. The other side of this coin is a disdain for "self promotion"--someone who takes his own destiny into his own hands is looked a bit askance at, a type of social climber who ignores his lack of talent and in an unseeming way tries to make it his own way.

2. a disdain for money: those who don't get paid for playing, or who don't rely on it, seem to think that getting paid to play "taints" artistry in some way. Their favorite image seems to be the barber who plays guitar better than Paco, or the guy who works in the forge but sings better than the sellouts on stage. The other side of this coin is that anyone who gets paid and/or plays music that the audience likes is less talented, less devoted to music, tacky, of wanting moral compass.

These phenomena at first surprised me, but I have come to regard them as routine. It seems to me that many amateur musicians are threatened by the fact that some people get paid, so they erect these walls or conditions in order to diffuse it, a kind of defensive behavior. It is clear that if you don't believe in self promotion, then you will always be in your room playing the guitar. It is clear that if think that money taints art, then you will never get paid for it. It is also clear that the guy who plays 8 hours a day is going to play better than the guy who only does it twice a week.

The American poet Walt Whitman, now thought of as one of the greats, printed his first collection in a so-called "vanity press" (the word insinuates that if someone prints their own work, it must not be worth anything, 'real' artists are discovered and promoted by other 'disinterested' parties). He also wrote an article anonymously extolling its virtues in a newspaper! Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc. wrote professionally, not in a museum. They were expected to write music that people liked. Da Vinci, Michelangelo, etc. painted on commission, as well. Did money "taint" the Sistine Chapel?

Art and Money will always be intricately related. Most of the best art of all time has been created with and for money, and little of the best art has been made without it. The fact is that professionals have a unique position to do great work because, well, that's their job. It's an interesting irony that amateurs often denigrate the very things which could raise them to the level of the pro.




Doitsujin -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 16:18:31)

I dont think that a player is a comercial looser if he adds more instruments.
Than all players of today would be loosers, including Paco de Lucia.

Do you think "comercial" music is not good? Why do so many people hear comercil music? Coz they like it. Its not always bad. (ok some is really bad)
It sounds like flamenco-puro is the only true "music" and its only without more instruments "serious music".
I dont think so. I think, today are more potentialities to use than in past.
Why not using them? If I produce a CD with flamenco together with some electronic music and I like it. Its not what you call comercial music. Its only my way of expression. If the crowd like it, too. fine.




Kate -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 16:19:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barney
I'm recording a CD at the moment, and I think there will probably 2 tracks which are just solo guitar, as any more would be too much for potential listeners.


On the CD 'Temple' by Emilio Maya that my partner Harold produced there are only three tracks with cante, and then only a short chorus or two, the final track being a fin de fiesta with just about everyone singing who could fit into the studio and grab some headphones. According to the guitar/ CD shops which sell the CD locally many people ask if the CD is solo instrumental as they dont like cante. They say that solo guitar sells better here, at least to the tourists who want to take home a taste of Spain and of course to the guitar students. I guess it depends on what and where your market is.

Kate




Guest -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 20:37:26)

quote:

According to the guitar/ CD shops which sell the CD locally many people ask if the CD is solo instrumental as they dont like cante. They say that solo guitar sells better here, at least to the tourists who want to take home a taste of Spain and of course to the guitar students. I guess it depends on what and where your market is.


That's true. When I worked in a shop in Granada I often heard this. Flamenco Cante is not for everyone, and a lot of people interested in flamenco prefer when there's no cante. It's easyer for them to listen to a solo guitar album.

I generally prefer flamenco with other instruments than just guitar, being cante or percussion, but what I don't like is the tendency to make solo guitar albums sound like elevator music. Some "advanced" chords, a bandless bass, a cajon, some palmas and a group of singers singing le - le - le. This gives me the creep.




Ron.M -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 5 2005 21:16:49)

Mike,
Great post!
I'd have to say that I agree with about everything you say there!

cheers

Ron




Mark2 -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 6 2005 1:59:03)

I'd rather palos with compas have palmas, but can do without cajon. I've heard people complain about palmas on a pdl record, but they weren't aficianados.
i'd rather have cante too than not on a record.




Jamey -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 9 2005 4:07:44)

Well, not that my opinion means much but here's my two cents anyway.....

I hate over production and over playing (playing that goes too tangential and does so for it's own sake rather than artestry of music and composition). I don't mind if there are other instruments in the mix so long as it doesn't turn into a flurried, flakey mess (I point to the latter part of the track "Calima" on Nuñez' CD of the same name - starts out pretty good but I skip it once the piano starts going bananas and the whole thing turns into a jazz festival set).

I love cante, not all cantaores but cante in general. I particularly like cante with no accompanyment (or very sparce accompanyment) or just palmas (perhaps because I mentally try to fill in the rest or sometimes try to play along). Lately though it's been Morente accompanied by Sabícas when he was very old, and Camarón with Tomatíto on the "Live in Paris" recording.

I do like solo guitar a lot, but it has to be done a certain way for me. It has to be telling a story in it's own right. "Hondo" by P. Habichuela is a pretty good example of this. Listen to it at the end of the day when you're tired and it's quiet and late. A completely solitary, late-at-night introspective sort of thing. That works well for me. I like Sabícas as a guitarist, reference point and source of knowledge and inspiration. However, there are times when I'm listening to an album of his that is nothing but him playing frenetically and after a short time, it simply becomes too much to listen to and not as enjoyable.

Guitar and chello when arranged well can be interesting too. Same with flute (Juan Diego has both on his "Luminaria", though not on the same songs - done very well).

Throw a sax in there and I stop listening. Through any electric guitar (particularly distorted) and I can't hit the stop button fast enough. For me, they have no business being shoe-horned into a flamenco piece because it completely ruins it for me. I don't mind either of them on their own in other music forms but not flamenco.

Now I'm just rambling....bloody fatigue.....

Oh yeah and one other thing, I absolutely HATE castanets. They irritate me to the point of violence. I don't know what it is but I just want to smash them to tiny pieces when I hear them.




Phil -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 9 2005 6:50:12)

quote:

Oh yeah and one other thing, I absolutely HATE castanets. They irritate me to the point of violence. I don't know what it is but I just want to smash them to tiny pieces when I hear them


I agree 100%. I find them to be very annoying. Who introduced them to Flamenco anyway? I'd rather hear a tastefully played cajon any day than castanets, but nothing beats plain old palmas.

Phil




Ron.M -> RE: Solo Guitar? (Jun. 9 2005 8:12:53)

quote:

Well, not that my opinion means much

Jamey, ...yes it does!

quote:

Oh yeah and one other thing, I absolutely HATE castanets. They irritate me to the point of violence.


.....[:D][:D][:D]

cheers

Ron




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