Friederich with flatsawn neck and heel

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Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

Friederich with flatsawn neck and heel

Hey all,
Got to examine a great 1981 Friederich classical today. Several interesting things about it but the main thing that struck me was that the neck and heel were perfectly flatsawn. The guitar has held up very very well and the fingerboard was as flat as you'd want it. The neck looked like Spanish cedar but I'm told he likes to use Mahogany a lot so it might have been that.
So clearly it can be done but anyone have any ideas why he might orient it that way?

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2011 21:34:57

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

60 years of Fenders can't be that wrong

Tongue in cheek - clearly we aren't talking about necks with hefty truss rods here. (But, less tension too).

There is info available indicating that at least some woods are stronger in flatsawn rather than quartered configuration (ref Somogyi book), but they may all be softwoods rather than our lighter hardwoods.

Do you know whether or not he used any sort of neck reinforcement?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2011 22:10:52

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I´ve tried a 1962 Reyes with flatsawn cedar neck and no reinforcement. The neck was in perfect shape.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2011 8:33:25

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

From all the articles I've read on him there is no neck reinforcement mentioned...

It was a pretty unique Friederich in that it had an asymmetrical bracing with a cutoff only on the treble side, and the outer brace going over the harmonic bar only on the bass side. Plus a secondary "Bouchet" bar between the bridge and the harmonic bar, and a very thin cedar top (1.7-1.4 mm)
Sweet guitar in every way except for being refinished in lacquer

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2011 12:59:48

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

hmm that is very interesting. I've just seen a 1982 Friedrich with the same bracing pattern as you describe. Did you check the thickness with a hacklinger guage? I was told that the one I have seen has a soundboard thickness of 4mm around bridge area inbetween the two bars. Even suggesting that this was in fact a seperate piece of wood like a giant bridge strap. I didnt notice the neck being flat sawn however I did note that the back bars were flat sawn. This guitar is owned by a friend of mine so I will look again next time at the neck. Perhaps a copy is in order!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 29 2011 11:16:39

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

It seems to me that in classical and flamenco guitars you see every kind of cut, flat, quarter or rift and they all work just fine. As long as its a good and stable piece of wood, that is. I've been told that quarter and flatsawn are not all that different in terms of strength, but stability might be another issue.

In my own experience I built a guitar with a beautiful and perfectly quartered cedro neck (including a carbon rod) that just moved all over the place. The movement was totally humidity related, which makes me think that the wood itself was what is called "reaction wood" or basically came from a branch as opposed to the trunk of the tree. Most annoying as whenever it would come back to my shop, which is consistently at 40%, within a few days the neck would be perfect. The owner was not all that good about humidity and he just couldn't see why this guitar would behave differently than his others. I thought perhaps it was the fingerboard, so I put a new one on, which did absolutely nothing. Eventually I put a new neck on and so far so good.

SEden,
Are you sure you are talking about the top at 4 mm? Friederich laminates his sides for a total of 4 mm and has done so for 30 or more years. However his tops are usually quite thin. I've never seen or heard of one with a top that was not quite thin.
In any case he's a hell of a builder.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 29 2011 12:59:58

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Unfortunatly I wasn't the one with the Hacklinger guage so I couln't say for sure. This information was passed on to me by the owner the top was still thin around the edges 2.1mm if I remember correctly. I too thought he used very thin tops. I will get a Hacklinger and find out for my self.

I made a very nice guitar using the courtnell plan. Although you can see from the picture of the soundboard that the measurements on his plan are estimated at best. However I didnt use the double sides. When I can find the time i'm going make a more accurate copy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 29 2011 16:10:28

estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

heh heh I've used lots of flat sawn braces- in soe cases the wood is stiffer flat sawn.

I've been wanting to build something like a Friedrich too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 30 2011 0:20:17

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

The Lopez resurrection I mentioned in another thread had a very interesting aspect to the top bracing. The center fan was huge and quartered (as you would expect) the rest of the fans were much smaller and flatsawn. It was a real fascinating aspect to the overall top bracing actually, one I never thought to do myself.

Flatsawn shoulder, waist and back braces are much more common and seem to work perfectly fine.

I've got a stash of absurdly quilted honduran mahogany. It is way too heavy for a blanca neck but I've been thinking of busting it out for some classicals I'm building. The quilt shows up on the flatsawn face, and while I've used it before, I've made the necks quartered (the stock is 16/4 so I can choose either flat or quarter). You end up with some rays showing that there is figure in the wood, but nothing like what you see on the flat face.
Anyways should work just fine and this thread has got me to thinking.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2011 15:13:50

nhills

Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

All of this leads to the general question of the stiffness of a beam cut quarter sawn vs flat sawn. Note that this is for a beam as for a neck or braces; tops & backs should probably be quartered because of shrinkage differences when the width is much larger than the thickness.

Check the following:
http://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/quartersawn.htm

Data is scarce & tricky, but a flat sawn neck would seem to be OK. Rift sawn would not be good for much of anything.
Cheers,
Norman

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"The duende is God's orgasm." - Antonio Canales

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." - Santos Hernandez (as translated by R. Brune)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2011 16:29:23

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

The discussion about which is stiffer longitudinally, quartered or flat would be nice to have resolved but the choice to use a particular piece of cedar in the neck might be influenced by a desire to impart a small amount of flexibility into the neck. These days is seems that some builders make a rather stiff neck (reinforced) and build the relief into it.. I think that before the days of reinforcement the flexibility of the neck was judged by flexing it while working and then using that flexibility to get the relief. This is what many builders still do today myself included. So, the Friederich and the Reyes mentioned perhaps have cedar that was carefully chosen by the builders for its flexibility and then thinned and shaped acordingly.

John Ray
Granada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2012 8:11:11

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

So what about changes in tension of strings. Wouldnt it change relief??

I build quatersawn cedar, no reinforcement and I get very little or no flex.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2012 9:01:36

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Rift sawn would not be good for much of anything????
I think there is a difference of opinion on what Riftsawn actually means floating the internet, it may even be interpreted differently geographically. Here is a correct pic clearly showing the difference in cuts, it also shows how Quartersawn lumber can vary off of 90 degrees. Riftsawn lumber gets its name from the rifts between the boards and it has the most waste involved. I doubt many lumber mills do Riftsawn because of the waste factor not because it is an inferior cut in anyway.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2012 15:57:43

nhills

Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Sean)

Sorry for the confusion.
To clarify a bit -
In the context I was using it, I meant the angle of the end grain of a particular board - not how the cut was made. Obviously, you can get a "quartered" board from a plain sawn log.
In this sense, I meant "rift" as neither vertical grain nor flat grain of the board.
Cheers,
Norman

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"The duende is God's orgasm." - Antonio Canales

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." - Santos Hernandez (as translated by R. Brune)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2012 16:37:07

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

The neck on this guitar was pretty thin and had almost no taper.. it was like 22 mm at the first fret to about 22.5 at the 9th. But I suspect that it had been reshaped at some point because it was flattened off above the 5th fret or so. Still there was just the right amount of relief in the neck.
I usually reinforce my classical necks because they tend to pull up a little more with the higher action.
When I have "riftsawn" wood with the grain running at an angle I personally like to bandsaw it down the middle and rejoin it with one half flipped so the grain is like this /////\\\\\
To John's point, I'm really not sure I can feel the flex in a piece of neck wood at all

Maybe I need to start working out more.
I shape it to the client's preferred dimensions, and if I don't go below about 21 mm anywhere the relief always comes out in the totally acceptable range.

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2012 18:54:43

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Friederich with flatsawn neck an... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

The confusion comes from people referring to quartersawn wood as meaning 90 degree end grain wood, like the term on the quarter. Riftsawn lumber is more on 90 degrees then quartersawn, as you can see on the diagram the wedges of scrap are the pieces that are off 90 degrees where as the quartersawn can vary more in angle. If you have a board where the grain is running at an angle it is either quartersawn or from the more central slices of a plainsawn/flitch cut tree not riftsawn. If you look at the quartersawn diagram you will notice only the centre board of each quartered wedge is 90 degrees and the farther out to the corners you go the more off of 90 degrees you get while still technically being quartersawn lumber.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 3 2012 3:44:46