flamenco transcription legal rights question

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Stu

Posts: 2529
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

flamenco transcription legal rights ...

hello friends.

I spend a lot of time transcribing falsetas from videos and cds.

the reason I transcribe is because the stuff im after doesnt seem to be anywhere on the internet through the many sources I know of.

I would now like to share some of these transcriptions with others who may want them.

i would like to set up a webpage where they can be shared with eveyone but wouldnt want, for example, chicuelo and his lawyers hassling me!

anything I need to do/know before i do such a thing??

thanks in advance

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 0:08:17

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Stu)

damn man, you're doing the exact same thing that i'm doing :)
i guess we're gonna be rivals? :P

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 0:33:34

Stu

Posts: 2529
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

hahaha.... or partners???

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 1:16:32

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Stu)

possibly, although we should discuss that in private :)
(drop me a message when you're on fb chat tomorrow!)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 1:25:12

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Stu)

Well people like Faucher even sell them..does he have the blessing of every single artist he's transcribed? I kind of doubt it...and yet, seems like he's doing fine.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 5:33:33

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Stu)

I think that legally the original composers of the falsetas own the rights. In terms of legal action - I doubt that Chicuelo will sue anyone for copyright infringement; flamenco artists usually don't have the kind of money record companies do.

In any case, imo sharing your transcriptions for free for educational purposes is more 'morally just' (whatever that means) than charging people for someone else's falsetas.

Just my opinion, and is probably heavily influenced by my desire to see what you transcribed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 5:44:25

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to chester)

yeah just make some kind of disclaimer that the rights are owned by the individual artists and mention them by name, album, etc... state this is for educational purposes only, mention there's no money involved....obtaining the appropriate permission and rights to use or perform anything from the website rests with the individual and is encouraged....

Mention somewhere you have transcribed the guitarists you are a big fan of to be used as examples...(couldn't hurt)

do 2 versions of the disclaimer on page 1 one in English and one in Spanish.

makes it look more as if you are actually advertising the artist...

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 5:50:17

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ

possibly, although we should discuss that in private :)
(drop me a message when you're on fb chat tomorrow!)

yay!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 7:20:33

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Stu)

I think it may be a regional issue. In the US, there is a legal phrase that escapes me now that basically says you can transcribe and publish around 4 - 8 bars without paying royalties if it's used to illustrate a point. I think it's called the "Fair Use" clause.
But an entire song, or long passage is subject to copyright laws.
But these issues come up more for print media.
If it's internet only, and you're TABing, you're probably safe if you give proper credit. Especially if you're not making money off it.
But if you're charging money selling the transcriptions of someone's composition, then yes, I think that's the essence of intellectual property rights. You can't do that without at least getting their permission.
Which is to say that if you did it online only without permission of the composer, you'd probably get a cease and desist letter if you ruffled the wrong feathers, given that we're talking about flamenco and not Justin Beiber. But print media is more sensitive. I think.
Anyway, this is all technical stuff, and odds are, it's all good as long as you give credit. I'm no lawyer, but I'd guess that "good faith" applies here since it sounds like you're just trying to spread the flamenco love.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 7:51:58

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

the reason I transcribe is because the stuff im after doesnt seem to be anywhere on the internet through the many sources I know of.

If you posted your transcriptions --whether on your own website or here on the foro--, I think you'd be doing a service to the flamenco community. It's frustrating that there's so much good music which people would like to learn but which hasn't been transcribed. If flamenco had the financial infrastructure characteristic of some other art forms, the situation might be different. But it doesn't, and so recourse to 'volunteer transcriptions' becomes both a necessity and a service to the art form.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 8:42:35

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Stu)

I'd be curious to know more about this too. My impression is that the rights do belong to the artists but in flamenco they're almost never enforced.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 19:45:33

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Stu)

Let’s be quite clear about this: there are two separate questions about what you want to do:

• Is it legal, and
• I not, can I get away with it.

Most civilised countries are signatories to international copyright conventions which stipulate that creative artists are entitled to exclusive use of their intellectual property. There are, as has been pointed out, various exceptions such as fair use for purposes like reviewing etc. Read the Wikipedia article.

Flamenco is in an anomolous position in this respect, because any flamenco piece must be based on pre-existing material, or it wouldn’t be Flamenco. Thus in practice a flamenco artist might have trouble providing in a court of law that what you published was his own composition and not traditional. But that wouldn’t prevent him (or his heirs) costing you a lot of money in said court if he/they cared to try.

As a matter of practice, people have have passing transcriptions around for the last five decades and publishing them on the Internet for two, and no one seems to give a toss. The one exception I’m aware of is that Alain Faucher seems to have been told to stop advertising Paco de Lucía transcriptions, concomitantly with authorised versions appearing. So if you don’t actually sell yours, and if they’re not Lucía stuff, you chances would seem to be good. And even if you did get stopped, it would probably be a Cease and Desist order (such as I imagine M. Faucher received) before an actual suit.

But if you want to be sure of correct information, you’re going to need a lawyer.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 20:04:46

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Stu)

Interesting topic... I always wanted to know it myself. Thing is, I can transcribe stuff very very quickly. So I was thinking of publishing some transcriptions that are not available elsewhere. I could probably be done with the whole Sabicas in a year or so!

And a little off topic... This copyright stuff is really making my composing slow and painful. I always try to avoid putting in scales, rhythms, harmonies and idiomatic passages that have already been used by others. That leaves me with nothing, really. So I feel stuck.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 20:31:58

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Grisha)

I’ve had several conversations about this over the years. The accepted wisdom seems to be, don’t try to be totally creative all at one go, or you’ll fall on your face. Start with some familiar things and change them a bit in ways that seem good to you. Then when you’ve got into the habit, change them a bit more. And so forth.

This seems like good advice to me. Look at the Beatles’ (and Beach Boys’) early stuff: transparent Chuck Berry rip-offs. And you can see Lucía’s progression very clearly from Ricardo-style though the developments we all know.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 20:45:38

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

I always try to avoid putting in scales, rhythms

wow i think you are too worried about it, i think scales and rhythms are fine (as long as is not something like a catchy, unmistakable personalized theme)..

Speaking for me...everything good i was going to compose in flamenco some as*hole has already done it

I was gonna compose this great alegrias called Siroca, it was gonna be really nice...would make you think of the sea when u heard it...that's totally the kind of piece i wold have composed cause when i listen to it now i really like it

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 20:47:26

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

I could probably be done with the whole Sabicas in a year or so!

What I would really like to see someone competent do is The Fantastic Guitar of Sabicas and Escudero, which has just been reissued as a twofer with Flamenco Styles on Two Guitars.

I did the bulería myself and started some of the others, but the stereo separation is terrible, and I never finished them.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 20:57:12

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

That's great insight, thanks! This is especially appreciated since I don't really interact with any flamenco players/singers/dancers at all, so I can't ask them. So far vast majority of the things I composed went straight to trash because I caught similarities to someone else's music.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 21:23:32

josecarlos

Posts: 47
Joined: Dec. 16 2007

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 17 2014 18:16:46

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 13:47:43

Chiste de Gales

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009

RE: flamenco transcription legal rig... (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

And a little off topic... This copyright stuff is really making my composing slow and painful. I always try to avoid putting in scales, rhythms, harmonies and idiomatic passages that have already been used by others. That leaves me with nothing, really. So I feel stuck.

I wouldnt worry about it if using traditional material. I think if you can find at least 2 published examples of it (preferably audio) then the precedent has been set, and you should be able to claim that its public domain.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 15:27:59